What is Oxalate Dumping?

[Music]

Welcome back to the Kidney Stone Diet podcast, the show about reducing your kidney stone risk and living your best life. I'm your host and fellow student, Jeff Sarris.

And I'm Jill Harris, your kidney stone prevention nurse, and I'm so happy to see you, Jeff. I'm so happy. Thank you for coming back, people.

Happy to have you!

Absolutely! And I always get to the end of that intro, and I wonder if I actually said the right thing. 'Cause it's become so just like autopilot sometimes that I'm like, wait, what did I just say?

Was that good? But, yeah, did it right, so.

You did a very good job. A very good job.

No, it's just funny because like we record—I mean, we're up to, I think this is going to be episode 82, which is wild to think. That is so many episodes. And we definitely need to plan something for 100, just I have a few thoughts, but it'd be fun to do to change it up just a little bit.

So much fun, so much fun. I would like that, too. I mean, you know, here's the deal, Jeff and I, we don't really have to add this to our plates.

We love doing it, but it's not for us that we do this. We do it because there is a plethora of information here. Plethor, plethora, plethora?

Plethora.

Yeah, plethora. I mean, I swear to God, it's amazing that I tie my shoes and get to leave the house, I don't even know. That's why people are like, "Jill, you're so smart." I don't know shit about anything except kidney stone prevention.

A plethora,

Plethora, plethora, of course it's plethora. There's so much free information. And we It is a privilege to be able to give that out to the world in the world of kidney stones that the information that can be very confusing.

So, to us, it's super exciting that there's going to be so many episodes for you guys.

Oh, yeah, for sure.

So exciting.

Yeah, and we've touched on so many things, but it's it's never ending. I mean, you've been doing this for 20-plus years, and there's always more things to solve and help people work through. Like no matter how many people you've talked to and worked with so far, there's always there's always more.

And it's it's all about saying it the right way at the right time when the person needs it. So, even if there's repeat repeats on here or repeat questions or whatever it is, it's

It's important to try to reach as many people as we can because, like, you know firsthand, it's you don't have this level of help a lot of times in the area in the field just because like the way the system is built. Like, nothing against it, it's just it's very difficult to get the one-on-one time to really dive deep into things.

So, yeah, we just really hope that these episodes really help people along their journey.

Yeah, it's super exciting. I think we're I just think we're so lucky that we're able to do this, you know, spend the time and give this to people. And, you know, there's so much more.

This is just not about kidney stone prevention. It's like, how do you eat properly? And what is that properly for you?

Because everybody here is different and what works for Bob is not going to work for Sally. And so you've got to really, and that's why what my services do, it's like really

Pinpointing, listening to people, what are their obstacles, what are their other medical conditions, and how do you put a healthy lifestyle together based upon a crazy job, five children, single motherhood, a surgeon who's working all day and can't use the bathroom. I mean, there's so many things here. It's not about give a list and say drink more water and do this and do that.

It's really difficult. And I guess that's why

I'll never be a wealthy woman because, you know, I'm sitting here and we're telling people, look, this is hard. It's hard to do and it's even harder to stay consistent for the long term. One of the reasons my patients are so successful and my students are so successful is I teach them to manage their expectation knowing that things are going to come along and derail them.

That's going to happen.

It doesn't matter that it derails you for a day or two, it's about how quickly you get back on your lifestyle, and nobody will gain a stone or weight in a day or two, even in a week or two. I mean, maybe weight in a week or two, but get right back to it and everything will be okay. So, it's teaching people how to manage their expectations against the big diet machine that's telling us, "Well, it's quick and easy and, you know, get your flabby arms in February to where they need to be in March."

It's such bull-doodle. So, you know, I feel like we're always up against that, right? And we have to We have to change the way people think about this.

It's not quick. It's not easy. It's going to take some time, but your health, I can't think of anything I can't think of anything better to strive for than that, not weight loss per se, just to look adorable in your new sweater.

It's about

Losing weight, learning how to eat well to manage your health. That's a whole different ballgame, and I think that's what keeps people motivated. People come to us because they have a kidney stone, because pain is motivating.

But what keeps them long-term is we're actually educating them on how to do the treatment plan so they can be successful and never make another stone again, and that's the goal.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I think that's a good note to dive into our question this week.

All right, honey, let's go.

Aloha. My name is Arlette. I'm calling from Hawaii.

First of all, I want to say thank you to both of you because I've been learning a lot. I enjoy watching and hearing the show, the questions. And you both make a very good couple, yin and yang energy, very enjoyable.

So, my question is

In the Kidney Stone Diet about hair loss. So, what Jill will recommend for that hair loss in the process of dumping from oxalates? Big mahalo and aloha!

Aloha! Isn't that wonderful? Hawaii.

Thank you. Thank you for your question. Thank you for your kind words.

We're so happy you're here and we're happy that you got on a call and left us a voicemail. So, oxalate dumping and hair loss, not going to win any friends. Let me just say this.

There are There are people in the internet that just coach on oxalate dumping.

I've dealt with people with high oxalate for 23 years. I've never had one patient have any problem with oxalate dumping. That's just my experience.

I don't see any great science talking about oxalate dumping, either, but I'm not I'm not here to cause any friction with that. Alls I know and what I can speak to is

My patients come to me to lower their oxalate. Oxalate dumping is thought to be, is said to be, has reported to be by people, that not my patients, I've had no experience with it, so let me be clear about that, but taking away oxalate too quickly can lead to this, this, this, and this.

That's what some people say. I'm not saying it's I'm not saying it's true or untrue. In my experience, I have not experienced this.

And my patients and students, as soon as they find out they have a kidney stone, most doctors will say, "Stop eating oxalate." So, they do. They stop eating spinach and oxalate spinach and almonds right away. They do that right away, 'cause they're not going to go through that again.

I haven't had patients tell me they had neuropathy from it, I haven't had patients tell me they lost their hair from getting rid of spinach and almonds and, you know, lowering their oxalate. I haven't experienced that. So, hair loss, I'm getting older.

You can see my scalp real good now. Used to be I had so much hair you couldn't see you didn't even know I had eyeballs.

So, we are going to lose some We are going to have hair loss as we get older, we women, too. So my question would be to you, is it from oxalate dumping? Is that true?

Or are there other things? Do you have another medical condition? Is your thyroid at a whack?

I lost some a lot of hair when my thyroid was at a whack in my 40s. Hypo, not enough, low thyroid.

Could it be from something else that's going on with you that it's causing the hair loss? So, oxalate dumping is getting very popular, so a lot of people ask me about it. I don't have any experience with it.

A lot of people will tell you it's not a real thing. There's some huge advocates that will for oxalate dumping that will say it's absolutely a real thing.

I don't see any real, good science to show that it is, and in my experience, I can't really speak to it because I've never had one patient say, "have any of those symptoms after they have lowered their oxalate." So, for your beautiful question, I would say you might want to talk to your doctor about your hair loss.

Do some testing to figure out what it could be from. Are you deficient in some vitamins, some nutrients? Have you lost a lot of weight recently?

Again, do you have a medical condition that's predisposing you to hair loss? Are you like me, getting a little bit older, and we are losing some hair? We don't have as much hair as we used to.

It could be any of those things,

But in my experience, I wouldn't say it's oxalate dumping. In my experience, don't give me no hate mail, people, for saying that. I just don't have I've never seen that in 23 years, and I've talked to thousands of people and helped them lower their oxalate.

And I think I would have I have a very robust community, they would be talking about that. So, that's just my experience. Talk to your doctor as to what are the other possibilities that you could have to cause the hair loss.

And also, were you eating 5,000 milligrams of oxalate and then you went down to 100?

I mean, you know, this is so incredibly rare that has happened to people. So, not in my experience do I see anything oxalate dumping related. Never have had a patient or a student have any symptoms from it.

And I hope I'm being clear. I think I'll end it there.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, because there are so many things that play into our overall health and hair and things can be a I don't want to say a symptom, but sort of a tell that maybe something else is off. And even something as like simple in air quotes as stress can really have a big impact because stress affects our hormones and our hormone balance affects our hair and there's so many things that

Can cascade down and create different issues. So it is It is, unfortunately, not going to be easy. It's not going to be simple to say there is exactly one thing.

But yeah, that is it's a it's a complex machine that we are.

It is a complex machine, and I know some people like, "Oh boy, Jill, if my doctor told me something, I wouldn't have been asking this on the phone, okay? I would have went…" But the thing is, you have to be careful when you're answering some questions. It's our personal responsibility to really be responsible with the answers we give.

So, the other thing is, like Jeff said, hormones. Are you going through menopause? Are you losing hair because, you know, of that and the hormones that are going on?

Did you lose weight, a lot of weight recently because of stress? So many different things.

And when you are searching for an answer, and God knows I'm guilty of this, even me, I've been guilty of this. My back went out 3 weeks ago now, and I'm like Googling, "Is it from my radiation? Is it from this?" And then you just start getting so heady and then you see a couple things on the internet, you're like, "I got that!" And as a matter of fact, that person says because of these symptoms, I must have that.

Man, that person, I'll always refer patients back to their doctor,

Because when you ask us a question, which I'm so grateful for, but we can't say it's this. So, I would never say, and nobody should say, "It's absolutely oxalate dumping." Who knows that? Nobody here knows your medical history.

So, you've got to be careful. We, as patients, have got to be careful on what we Google and what we take from it. And also we who are giving education on the internet have got to be very responsible

And be careful about what we're saying, because what we say people take and do their own thing with, okay? Even me, who's so particular about what she says, and I know what I say typically, unless you're asking me milligrams per pound of something, then I get confused. But, I mean, even me, I've been saying so many of the same things over and over for decades, so I know what I say, but it's always surprising to me what patients do with, "Jill said!

Jill said!" on my Facebook group with the thousands of people. "But Jill said this!" "No, Jill didn't say that!"

And then I'll do a Facebook Live and I'll say, "No, Jill did not say that." So, sometimes how the message is communicated and then what is taken from it, it's the game of telephone, right? So, we you know, we as educators have got to be so careful on what we say and how we say, and I'm always going to refer say you should talk to your doctor about that.

But it's a wonderful question and it makes total sense that you may have heard on the internet that could be caused by oxalate dumping. I'm going to push a little back on that and say I think you should keep seeing what else it could be.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, thank you so much for your question. Because, yeah, that is something that, when it comes to oxalate dumping, that is There's a lot of information out there, and

Yeah.

Valid or not, like good or bad, like that isn't your experience, and like you said, we stick in the lane of what you know. I mean, that's the whole like, that's why like I'm just here as the student learning from you. Like, I'm I'm trying to contribute and help where I can and where I'm like proficient and understand from my training as a health coach, but when it comes to stones and oxalate and all these things, this is 100% you.

And this is why we stay in this in this lane sharing the things that we can be 100% certain are the valid is the valid response to a given question.

Yeah, because I we take this seriously. This is your health. So, I'm not just going to throw stuff around and there I mean, this is your health, so we've got to be It's a privilege.

It's a privilege to be able to talk to people and try to help and support them. That's a privilege. I went on my Facebook page today, and I do this often, and I wrote a post and I said, "I just I am so grateful.

I appreciate that you trust me. You don't have to Who the hell is this broad on the internet with the rocker T-shirt? I mean, what's this?

You know, you don't have to." So, I cherish that. I value that. I'm grateful for that, because as a patient myself with cancer stuff, it's like, you want somebody you can trust.

So, we here are going to be very careful about the answers we give. We're going to be very thoughtful and we're going to be sensitive, and we understand that there's other things going on in your life. It's not just about kidney stones.

And so, sometimes when you ask a question, again, so grateful for it, because it does, we get to talk about all this in the open,

It's like, it may not be our experience in the stone world. I'm not saying something's true or not true. I'm just saying I've never seen it in my world in 23 years, so, you know.

But, it's I think all questions are welcome. I'm thrilled to have them and we are both very thrilled and never take a day for granted that you trust us with the information we're giving you. We're very grateful for that.

Right, Jeff?

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, 100%. Yeah, and for anyone listening, if you have a question that you'd like to have answered, the number again is 773-789-8763 and we will feature you on a future episode.

And, yeah, if you want to dive deeper, there is the Kidney Stone Prevention Course at kidneystonediet.com, there is the weekly email newsletter that every Saturday or every Sunday

Saturday. Saturday, yeah.

It goes out on Saturdays. People mostly read it on Sunday, but it goes out on Saturday morning.

Yeah, I'm a little off this week, but, yeah, every Saturday you send out the email newsletter for a little inspiration to keep people sort of on their on the right path, on the journey to reducing their risk for kidney stones, and that's completely free, and you can find it at kidneystonediet.com, where you can find the meal plans, the prevention course, and the link to the Facebook group, which is a wonderful community where people really, they understand what you're going through, and you can share sort of share in the experience together.

But yeah, there's so many resources, and we're so grateful for having you here. So, I think with that, we'll just wrap for this week. So, thank you again, and we will see you next time.

Bye-bye, Hawaii!