How much calcium does it take to safely eat high oxalate foods?

Welcome back to the Kidney Stone Diet Podcast, the show about reducing your kidney stone risk and living your best life. I'm your host and fellow student, Jeff Sarris.

And here I am, Jill Harris, your happy, friendly kidney stone prevention nurse. Here we are, Jeff.

So, anyone who is maybe a long-time listener or watcher, I should say, of the show will notice we're changing things up a little bit. I didn't reset the room like I normally do over here, trying a new shot. This is sort of getting a behind the scenes look of what the rest of my room looks like.

Normally I deconstruct everything, move the desk, create the setup.

Well, I like it plus, you know, I kind of, people are like, "Can you just let him talk, please? Shut up, Jill!" I kind of like I like seeing the camera in the back. I feel like it's like background coolness, like, you know, cool, part of it.

I like that.

They don't actually see the camera. So…

Well, what the hell, Jeff? That's cool.

Yeah, so it's a different angle. So, so yeah, you're seeing out of my iMac, and then they're seeing this front camera, and then the back camera is sort of the over the shoulder. So yeah, you actually, you're the only one that gets to see that.

I like that. I feel I always like behind the scenes stuff. Like I hear I like hearing when people make bloopers or swear a lot.

I like seeing the real thing. But see here's the thing, because we do things so fresh, you will hear me swear and we will have bloopers. They don't even have to go behind the scenes with that.

It doesn't get any more real than this.

Absolutely. So yeah, should we dive right into this week's question?

Let's go, baby. Let me see what you're going to get me with this time.

Let's see here.

Hi, my name is Eleonore and I'm from Vancouver, British Columbia in Canada. I have a question for Jill.

Potatoes are really high in oxalates, but since mashed potatoes contain milk,

Would mashed potatoes be, you know, acceptable? Just wondering. Thank you so much and I just want to thank Jill for everything that she's got on her website, which is very, very helpful.

Thank you. Bye-bye.

Okay, so mashed potatoes. Eleonore's like, "Damn, but, Jill, there's milk in there. Doesn't that take into account for something?" Oh, I love this question, 'cause I get a lot.

And you're very welcome. It is my privilege to offer the information that we have on the website and my team makes it beautiful. We are very happy to give you everything we can possibly can to make your journey easier.

Okay, so mashed potatoes, mashed potatoes, can I have them?

Well, I think I think we need jing- jingles for all the questions. I think that's great.

I know, we do.

I like it. Okay, so can she, my beautiful friend, have mashed potatoes? You can have mashed potatoes.

"Holy shit, Jill! Really, can I have mashed potatoes?" You can. But here's there's always something I'm going to say about it, 'cause there's going to be

More than "can you have it, can you not." So, yes, there's some milk in mashed potatoes, but we've got to think, how much milk? 1/4 of a cup, 1/2 of a cup? We don't want them too runny.

So, it's the calcium oxalate ratio, which everyone always wants Look at me. Everyone wants to know the perfect ratio. There ain't none.

I don't know it. How about that for data?

I don't know the perfect ratio. You'll hear this throughout our videos. When they when they study when they study, we get This is how the studies go.

We lock people in a room. This is what they do, and this is why it's hard to study food. You've got to get participants willing to be locked in a room, given what they are given to eat, they don't get no choice 'cause they're they're part of a control group versus a non, and they're going to be looked at, here's everything we gave this group, and they're going to take urine samples, and they're going to take blood samples, and then the point is, I'm biffing this already, but we're going to keep rolling, people, 'cause no one cares.

The thing is, they have to give people in excess, lots of oxalate, lots of calcium, so they can actually measure what's coming out in the waste, okay? So it's so much, it's not like normal amounts of calcium, normal amounts of oxalate. That's not happening, 'cause they wouldn't be able to really see what's going on.

So, we don't know. I don't know. But I do give patients, 'cause I know they like numbers, it's about this.

So, if you want to pair your calcium with a higher oxalate food, which you should, I tell them, "Look, 25, 30, when you're getting when you're getting that much oxalate on your plate, that's where you want to put a glass of milk or non-dairy milk." Okay? I have no data to support this. Let me say that again.

No data ain't supporting this, okay? But all my patients want to know about, "How much? Okay, Jill, so why are you telling this unscientific gibberish, Jesh?

Why would you even say that? What kind of nurse are you?" Well, here's the deal. Again, I will say, I look at thousands of urine collections, follow-up urine collections, and that advice seems to have worked for 21 years.

So, I stick by it. So, I really always want to tell you this. I never tell you something without having so much experience behind what I say and then seeing the results based upon urine collection follow-ups, okay?

So, can my dear friend have some mashed potatoes? She can. Get your calcium every single day, most days, get what you need: 1,000 for women who do get their period, 1,200 for women who do not, men, 1,000.

All right? You want to spread that calcium throughout the day.

If you want to spend your oxalate budget on mashed potatoes, have it. Most of you will have 100 mg of oxalate a day allowance unless your doctor has told you otherwise. When, if you're saying it's You wake up and it's Thanksgiving, and you're like, "I'll tell you what.

It ain't Thanksgiving in this house unless I have some mashed potatoes." Have the mashed potatoes. Put a lot of milk in, but not too much milk in. Guess what?

One pile of mashed potatoes ain't making a stone. It's what we do every single day and not getting our calcium needs met in and with excess oxalate: spinach, almonds, rhubarb, beets, in any amount we want every single day. That's what leads to it.

So, you'll see me on Facebook. I often go on Facebook on every holiday. Tomorrow,

Tomorrow, Jeff? No.

No, this weekend.

In two days it's going to be This weekend, right, today is July 1st, and this weekend is going to be 4th of July. So, I will do a Facebook Live and I'll say, "Listen, guys," 'cause everyone gets real nervous, "Holy Bregoli, I don't want to make no stone. We're having hot dogs with salt." Nobody made a stone in a day, nobody, not one person, nobody.

But it makes sense when you have been terrorized by these disgusting stones that you get nervous like you do. So, I understand it, but I am here to bring some common place, sprinkle some common sense on your plate. You're not going to make a stone from one day.

Have your treats, whatever you're going to have, get right back on track. This is what the diet industry doesn't teach us. Get right back on track.

Don't you beat yourself up for having a damn hot dog. Nobody cares about that. Don't do it.

Get right back on track. My patients continue to lose weight, maintain their weight, enjoy their food, have their treats, don't make new stones because of this advice. And also, they can do it long-term because they actually do get to enjoy a 4th of July hot dog or hamburger.

Come on, people, of course you can. Think about your past. Think about what you've done in your past over and over and over.

Most of my patients say, "Jill, I didn't pay attention to no salt. I didn't pay attention to added sugar. I ate so much oxalate, but what do I know?

I didn't know about oxalate." Of course you didn't. And the most common thing, "Jill, I haven't had a glass of milk since I was three." So, it's a combination of all the elements of the Kidney Stone Diet that makes it a pain in the tush, I know, but every single one of them is very important. We're not just throwing things out there to be annoying or to make it overwhelming.

All of these things will help curb your stone production. Now, one more thing for Eleonore. I have a beautiful recipe on my website that mimics mashed potatoes for those people who are like, "I'm never having a mashed potato again because they're high in oxalate, and if I do have them, Jill, I can't watch my portion anyway 'cause I love them so much." So, cauliflower mash.

Before everybody says I'm shutting her off, don't shut me off. Listen. We used to make cauliflower mash all the time for Thanksgiving, and then also the mashed potatoes.

It didn't take but one Thanksgiving that we that the next time we had a Thanksgiving, they were like, "Forget about the mashed potatoes. We're going to have the cauliflower mash." Why? Because they're delicious, because guess what, people, once you make mashed potatoes, it ain't no potato that's delicious, it's the salt, and the butter, and the cream, or whatever else you're putting in there, okay?

Sour cream, all that junk. It ain't the potato. So, make a cauliflower mash, very little oxalate, delicious.

Have at it. Recipe's at kidneystonediet.com. Go under, Kidney Stone Diet Recipes right there.

Free, free, free.

Yeah, cauliflower mash is surprisingly good and so satisfying, right?

And, honey, so easy to make! Nothing I make is hard and laborious. Yeah.

For sure. So, just because you mentioned 4th of July, this is when you're listening right now, it's obviously later, we record these ahead of time, but for people who may be having the hot dog and maybe indulging a little in the potato chips, because I mean, that's sort of like chips and a hot dog, chips and a burger, or french fries or something.

How would you say to sort of because we're talking about quantity, again, like portions. So, how would you say to maybe temper someone's expectations of how much they should be grabbing and how to how to manage that, like at a party?

Yeah, I love that question and that's why you're not only handsome, but you're smart, too, which is a bonus for me, 'cause we have to talk to each other a lot. Okay. So, my Facebook members know this, there's 10,000 people on that page, and people that work with me, and, of course, they know this.

A couple weeks ago, I had a crinkle, I had crinkle fries and a hot dog. It happens to be one of my most favorite thing, crinkle fries are one of my most favorite things. Now, my family has kidney stones and so I follow everything I ask y'all to do.

I watch my oxalate, all of it. And because of my bowel issues, I can have malabsorption issues, so, you know, I've got to watch my oxalate as well, okay. So, I want you to know that when I, first of all, I was with over my mother's house and they were taking an order and I said, "I'm going to have a crinkle fry and hot dog." Everyone, it's like a party in the house when I say that.

"Holy Bregoli, Jill's having a hot dog and crinkle fries! Everybody come around, look at this!" Because they always make fun of me 'cause I bring my own food and I'm always like, "Oh, I'm so full." And my mother gets She's like, "Oh, what'd you have, a piece of lettuce?" You know, I'm ridiculous and they make fun of me and we all laugh together.

But the other week I had a hot dog and crinkle fry. When I tell you, don't think I didn't lick the bag, I didn't eat the hot dog with a big smile on my face, that was just the day. You're like, "Why are you telling me this, Jill?

Who gives a darn about your hot dog and crinkle fry?" The point is, first of all, I never want to mislead anybody. What I ask you guys to do, I do. So, number one, I know it's hard.

Number two, I know that you're going to run into issues because I always do, too. It's like, you know, it's always hard no matter how long you practice this stuff. So, if it is like a barbecue, if it's a party, graduation, 4th of July, Christmas, whatever, Hanukkah, whatever you're celebrating, have what you would like.

I do not have, you know, as much as I want, stuff my face with everything, but I have my favorite things, and a hot dog and crinkle fry is one of my favorite things. I have it. I don't have just a few fries, I eat that whole bag.

And also if there's some stray on the table, I will eat those, too, because that's This is my time to shine. So, I eat that. I enjoy it.

I move on, and I move on right away. The next thing I put in my mouth will be a healthy thing. Why?

Why do I do it that way and why do I ask my patients to do it that way? So, you get out of the shame cycle. Many of us have our favorite thing, say, "Screw it!

I had my favorite thing, I can't do this. I'm terrible! I'm terrible!

I'm terrible!" So, and how do we make ourselves feel better? We can't smoke Tareytons no more. So, what do we do?

Jeff's so young, he's like, "What the hell is a Tareyton?" The cigarette! You don't know, don't even pretend you do.

No, I don't. I didn't know that brand, for sure.

Nobody would know that. That's from 1967. So, it's not We can't do those kind of things, so we're going to eat and that's how we comfort ourselves.

And, again, we need to talk about this. It's okay, 'cause this is what my patients tell me. They feel terrible that they had this indulgence, which, guys, at the end of the day, is just food.

Just don't then combine that treat with, you know, five more weeks of unhealthy food. Get right back on it, and the whole point of getting right back on it, so you do get your control back, so you do get your confidence back, so you can say to yourself, "I got this." And, also, that crinkle fry and that hot dog was delightful.

But when you eat healthy most of the time, that was so salty for me, I paid for it later, like I couldn't even swallow. I'm like, "Oh, my god." I mean, it doesn't taste It taste good going down, don't get me wrong. I was I was giddy as a schoolgirl eating it.

But I'm just saying, later on, I'm like, "I can't wait," and I mean this, "I can't wait to get back to my healthy lifestyle." So, it's a little treat and then I move on. So, I want I want everyone to be clear. I do not deny myself things when I want to have them.

I have them and then I get right back on track. So, I want people to learn that and if you can get right back on track, you're never going to gain weight. You just won't.

That's how That's how we maintain weight loss for the long term. You can't be on a diet for 6 months, say, "All good!" And this is why I say, it's work for the rest of your life, people. Don't let anyone tell you it's not.

You'll always be tweaking, you'll always have to think about it a little, and why wouldn't you? This is a beautiful vessel that gets you around day to day. Take care of it.

You have no guarantee about health, so take care of this body as best you can. Why do you get me started, Jeff? I've got to fan myself.

I mean, this is wonderful. I think this is an amazing episode. This is perfect and what people need to know, because it is…

Whatever, you've got to say that.

Oh, no. Oh, I don't I don't have to.

No, I know you don't.

No, I know, I know.

Yeah, you mean it.

Yeah, like and I mean it, because this it is important, because we do, we want to beat ourselves up, we want to we want to look at it and be like, "Oh, I messed up. Like this is it's just a it's a defeating, a self-defeating kind of cycle that we can fall into and there's no reason to.

Oh my gosh, yes! It just makes me so sad, so like I always say, I always make this funny, we have a good time, but god, my heart gets so sad, because what I hear every day in my practice is how people are using food to punish themselves, to you know, it's a rollercoaster of feeling like crap, because they made the quote-unquote "wrong choice," then comforting themselves with food and just going down that.

If you can get right back on track, I promise you, talk to anybody who has worked with me, I don't make it up, talk to anybody, look at the testimonials on my website, I ain't writing them, I don't have a couple glasses of wine and write those testimonials. I'm telling you, it works. It works because it's common sense and it has to be common sense in order to work here.

Diet, diets, and even though we call this the Kidney Stone Diet, it's to get your attention. You notice it's a set of goals: how much salt, how much sugar, which all of the major medical people agree on these goals, okay? It's not just the kidney stone people.

And so, that gives you choice of the things you like that work for your body, and honestly, treat yourself once in a while. It's just food. Don't use it to sabotage anything else, and get right back right back on track and you will never have to You'll always have to work, but you'll never have to worry, "Am I going to gain 20 pounds?" Because if you get right back on track, it's impossible, man!

Impossible!

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think this is a great note to go out on. So, if you have a question that you want answered on the show, the phone number is 773-789-8763 and we'd love to feature your question on a future episode.

Like, thanks so much, Eleonore, for calling in and giving us that question. And…

It's a beautiful question.

Yeah, it was perfect. And for anyone who wants to dive deeper and actually learn about the guidelines that you that you just mentioned, head on over to kidneystonediet.com where you'll find you'll find the oxalate list, you can go to kidneystonediet.com/start, which is a start page that just compiles everything. All of the all the key information you need to know to really get started on this journey to reducing your kidney stone risk.

So yeah, I think that'll do it for this week. So, thanks again for listening and we will see you all next time.

Thank you, Eleonore.