Does tea cause kidney stones?

Inspire.

Welcome back to the Kidney Stone Diet podcast, the show about reducing your kidney stone risk and living your best life. I'm your host and fellow student, Jeff Sarris.

And I'm Jill Harris, your kidney stone prevention nurse.

So happy to be here.

I'm still riding a high because we just celebrated our 100th episode.

Yeah, a few weeks ago for the listeners, but I mean it's all in the same day because this is how it makes the most sense for us to record. So it works really well this way for us.

Yes, and we- and we're still with each other, so that's great.

Yeah, we get to hang out a little longer, too, which is fun. And it does feel like we need to do this, we need to try to work this in somehow because busy schedules, it is hard. It's a full day of travel for you to get here or us to get by you and just everything together, but it's been fun.

Well, you have it set up so nicely. We- I would definitely travel here. And, you know, we should do this more, just 'cause I think it's- it's so wonderful to have your presence with mine.

You know, I just enjoy it. I really don't care what the listeners think. I'm enjoying it.

Oh, yeah. For sure.

I'm enjoying it. No, but people would say, "Oh, sure, it'd be nice if you guys could be in the same room." So, yeah. And it is, so you guys were right.

It is very nice to be in the same room.

Definitely. And I feel like we'll need to get Amara a mic, too, over there, just. Yeah, she's- she's off-camera, off-mic, doing the

Well, she just came up with the title for this for this episode. So, yes, we do need to mic her, for sure.

Which, actually, what is that? That is: Does tea cause kidney stones? So, last episode we talked about dark drinks and things, but we actually didn't touch on tea, and tea is a big one.

As soon as we finished, you were like, "That's something we need to stick a pin in and talk about."

Yes. Tea is, you know, we- it should have been one of the first 10 we did. But, there's so much to talk about, and this is why when people come to us and they're like, you know, "We- It's so overwhelming.

They've just been sick, they've just had a surgery, they're just recovering.

And now they have to figure out all of this information on how to prevent kidney stones." And that's not easy. Kidneystonediet.com, the Start page, we have made a page where all the resources, wh- where that page is really like, "Holy Bejeezus, I need help, I'm overwhelmed. Where do I start?" kidneystonediet.com Start page.

You'll find great starting material so you can get a little grounded and go, "Okay. So, now I feel a little bit better." When you feel a little bit better emotionally, you can start your journey to prevention. And so, tea, tea.

So, last week, Jenny called, and her doctor threw her a brochure that said stay away from dark liquid, basically. And it, I, I didn't bring up tea in that episode. We focused on soda because, like Jenny, we didn't know what the hell the doctor meant.

So, Amara over here said, "Well, you know, something about tea." And I'm like, "Oh, shoot. That could have been the dark liquid he meant." But again, we don't know.

Anyway, tea. Tea is high in oxalate. "Okay, Jill, but there's 5,000 teas." Here's the deal, people.

You can absolutely have tea on the Kidney Stone Diet. There's not a problem with that.

The patients who form kidney stones because of tea, or so they tell me, is because they were drinking tea all day long, 10 cups, 11 cups, 12 cups with absolutely no calcium in their diet. And so they had high oxalate levels. So,

The next question is, we know black tea is high in oxalate, we know that. But there's Sleepy Bear tea, my grandma went to take a nap tea, flowers and sunshine tea, and you name it, there's all kinds of teas out there. So,

There's not a day that goes by that people say, "Jill, I'm drinking wildflower tea. What's the oxalate in that?" And I'm like, "Look, Pam, I don't know what the oxalate is in wildflower tea, but I know this:

When we eat and drink everything appropriately, not all day long, not all day long, then

We don't have a problem with oxalate, and, more importantly, we get our calcium needs met every day." Because if you are taking in a lot of oxalate,

And you're not taking in any calcium, oxalate gets reabsorbed back into your body. When you're taking in the appropriate amounts of calcium, and you can go to kidneystonediet.com, my blog, to find out what that is for you,

Then oxalate and calcium bind together in your gut and leave through the stool, so you don't have an over-absorption problem with oxalate. So, as

We take away spinach and almonds 'cause they're pretty high in oxalate, and we eat everything else once or twice a week in normal portion size, nobody makes kidney stones if they had an oxalate problem and they take that advice. Now, that advice is not easy if you love chocolate and peanut butter and rhubarb and all those other really high-oxalate things, but

Portion, not perfection. You can still have peanut butter on the Kidney Stone Diet. We have a YouTube video to show you that.

And you can have chocolate, but you've got to know yourself.

Like, I can't eat Cheez-Its because I will eat the whole box. Even me will eat the whole box. So, they are not in my house.

So, if you love peanut butter, and you're triggered by it, and if you get the spoon and you eat the whole jar, you're going to have an oxalate problem, especially if you're not getting any calcium 'cause it's super high in oxalate. So, it's always about portion. Tea,

You can have tea, one cup or two cups a day. A true cup, not Starbucks, "I'm feeding a family of five," cup.

What about this?

No, it's too big.

Cup. The only thing in there should be exactly what you're doing, water. That's beautiful.

I love to see it. But a true eight-ounce or less cup, so one or two a day. And, you know, so people in England, it's a cultural thing.

They're drinking tea all day long. And I have a lot of patients from England, by the way. People who, or in Georgia, like Jenny was in our last episode.

And like I said, her doctor could have been saying tea, but he just said dark cola, dark soda, or dark whatever.

So maybe she was drinking too much sweet tea in Georgia. So, some of the things that we love are a cultural thing. It's what people where we live do, right?

We Italians, we're eating pasta on Sundays or whatever, one day a week, we're doing that. So, it's just how you're brought Italian cookies, we're doing that. So, there's just certain things that our culture has taught us that we just love and they're familiar to us and we just enjoy it.

So, drinking sweet tea all day long, drinking black tea all day long, stop doing things all day long. That's what got you into trouble with oxalate, along with not getting your calcium.

All the other teas, I know New England Journal of Medicine studied green tea, one brand, and they said it's low. So, everyone thinks green all green teas are low. We have that study, and in general, green teas are low.

But we will never have a problem with tea

And oxalate if we have one or two cups a day. So, don't worry about the type of tea you're drinking, just worry about the portion size in which you're drinking it and getting your calcium needs met every day, and you can still have tea in your cup if you'd like.

So, I then have a question.

Okay.

Now, there are all the herbal teas, like you mentioned, that have all these different names and things and it's like Sleepy Bear, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

What would- would you say there's any difference if it actually has almond in it?

No. Because it's usually like an extract or an oil that they've just flavored it with, that doesn't count.

Okay.

The other thing I want to say, too, the longer you steep a tea, the more oxalate it will have. Some people will leave that tea bag in there all day long, right? And then they'll just, you know, sip it all day long.

Well, that will have more oxalate, for sure. But again, it's a portion problem with everything in our life. We're never going to get obese if we watch our portion sizes.

We're Many times we will be able to curtail chronic disease if we just eat all things within portion size, eat responsibly, and you won't have any issues, also getting your calcium needs met every day to get rid of the excess oxalate. Very important. So, tea, absolutely have it if you can enjoy it responsibly.

Yeah, I think that's perfect. And yeah, it is so important because knowing that it's high, knowing that it's something that could be, an aggressive oxalate, suck out of your waller, your, like, credit card for the day,

Yeah.

Your bank account. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's good to know.

And I think there is Oh, and so you don't have to ask me every tea in the world, 'cause there's hundreds of teas, right? So, and I understand why patients get so confused. They're like, "Okay, but I drink this tea.

What do you think?" I don't know. It has not been studied. It won't be studied.

It's expensive to study oxalate. It's hard to study oxalate. It differs from plant to plant 'cause it's in plant foods depending on the soil and the growing condition.

Managing Oxalate Versus Sodium and Sugar Intake

So,

This advice I give may seem generic to some. "Well, she says just have a little portion. It's no big deal, even though Harvard says it's high." But the reason I'm able to give you what sometimes what seems like generic advice to you is because I'm looking at thousands of urine collections, people's follow-ups.

And when they when they originally came to me, their oxalate was 60, and now it's 20 because they took the advice and they did something with it.

So, I know it works. Unless you have malabsorption issues, it's not like I'm just being glib and not thinking about each and every one of you. I know that this works because I look at the follow-up urine collections and I see.

After people talk to me and they work and get and put everything into a plan, then their oxalate will be will never be something they have to worry about because they learned it. It's the salt and sugar people should be freaking out about and the water and the calcium, all the other things. But once you get the oxalate part of this, which takes

Just a couple videos, you'll see it's it really is the least important thing, but everyone wants to focus on it. Jeff's like, "Is she still talking?"

Sarah just looked at Bob and said, "Bob, get up. She's still talking."

Hi.

But this is an important thing for people because this is the thing I'm asked about the most.

Once you get that advice, you won't have an oxalate problem anymore. Focus on the other parts of the Kidney Stone Diet because they're so very important. But malabsorption people, that advice does not go to you because you have special issues, and I always want to acknowledge you and say, "I see you." That's a whole different ballgame.

So, for the average stone former that was eating too much spinach and almonds, slow your roll, people, on eating the same damn things all the time in any amount you want 'cause you heard it was healthy, okay? And have your tea, but within portion.

The end.

I think that is a perfect wrap-up of everything. And I know that was an FAQ, but if you have any questions out there, whether tea or anything else, the number is 773-789-8763. I know we covered tea, but, you know what I mean, if you have anything related or if it brings up another question that talking about these different teas and understanding that you can have it, but if something else comes up, let us know, and we will feature you in a future episode.

Well, guess what, I have one more thing to say.

Yeah.

The reason people are like, "How the hell are you talking about this oxalate every day for all these decades?" because if you went into your doctor's office, and the only thing they said was the word "oxalate," and guess what, you don't even know what that is, well, that is what you're going to attach to. Most doctors are not talking about salt and sugar.

Salt, yes. Sugar, not so much. So, there's this whole diet that we have to help lower stone risk, but

Everybody, including healthcare professionals, want to focus on the oxalate part, okay? It's really the smallest bit of this unless you have malabsorption issues. The other things are the Holy Bejeezus moment that you're going to have to learn, right?

So,

Yeah, but that's a good point because oxalate almost feels like that magic pill of sorts because it's something I never heard of. This is the one thing that will solve everything for me.

Yes, sir. It certainly does.

And they made a calcium oxalate stone. So, they're like, "Oh, my god! What is this oxalate thing?

We've got to We've got to research this." And once they get a hold of me, they're like, "She said it ain't that big of a deal, but I made a calcium oxalate stone. The doctor talked about oxalate." But once you understand what you don't know, it's really the super simplest part. I'd rather you worry about all the other parts, mostly.

I promise. I promise, and I don't make promises glibly. I promise, that's the truth.

Yeah, for sure. So, if you have any questions about the Kidney Stone Diet, about the different goals and everything, you can go to kidneystonediet.com. There is the prevention course, there are all the free resources, the blog post that breaks everything down, the newsletter, the Facebook group, the meal plans.

I haven't brought up the meal plans in a little bit. That is a daily inspiration for breakfast, lunch, dinner, and a snack every single day of the week, where it can help keep you on track, not to tell you what you should eat,

But to show what you can eat, which is a big difference.

Oh, that's great. And that's very popular service 'cause people are always every day, they're like, "Oh, my god, I don't know what I could eat on this diet." So much, baby! So much that we have a meal plan to show you, very cheap, $19 a month.

Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah.

Cancel anytime.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, there's so many recipes in there, so many things you're constantly creating, and I love seeing all the new photos because it's just amazing. And who knows what we'll do in the future with more recipes.

Who knows? We got things in our basket coming up.

But, yeah. Thanks, again, for tuning in, everyone, and we will see you next time.

Bye, guys.