Can kidney stones affect your mental health?

The following is designed to entertain and inform, not provide medical advice. Always consult your doctor before starting any new treatment.

Welcome back to the Kidney Stone Diet podcast, the show about reducing your kidney stone risk and living your best life. I'm your host and fellow student, Jeff Sarris.

And I'm Jill Harris, your kidney stone prevention nurse. Hello there, Jeff. It's Sunday.

Sunday!

Yeah, and we are back in real time, I guess, for these last two episodes. So, I'm back home, we're doing a whole batch today. But just earlier today, you were saying that Finn had a little run in with the clippers, I guess.

I swear to God. So, if anybody's on my—well, if you're on the Facebook page at Kidney Stone Diet on Facebook, it's a private group, and then, of course, on Instagram, I'm there, too. So, I showed a picture of my little pony because that's what he looks like now.

I can't really describe the fact that I got a different dog. I got a different dog back. So, yesterday, he had some mats in his hair.

He's a doodle. He's a Bernedoodle, so they get matted hair. He has my hair.

God knows. If I went to the groomer, they'd probably shave me, too. God knows what you could find in my nest.

As a matter of fact, I was walking the other day, and one—and I said, "Did a bird just shit on my head?" She's like, "Birds really like pooping on your head." I said, "I guess they think it's a nest." Well, I would. That's probably why they're doing it so much. Anyway.

That happens a lot?

It happens enough that I think, "You know, maybe I should run a brush through it." It's been since 1972. You know, you don't brush curly hair. You don't brush curly hair, so you just go like this.

Oh, okay. You know, yeah, that's how what you do. So, I, you know, it's easy.

Anyway, so I brought Finn to the groomer. First of all, it took them five hours. I thought they kidnapped my dog.

And then when I picked him up, I was like, "Well, where's my dog? Because I don't know what this is." They're like, "Well, he had some mats." I'm like, "Some mats? This is a totally different dog." He looked at me like, "Really, I hate you." So, I took him, and they're like, "Well, you got to pay for this." I said, "Pay for this?" I said, "I think you should pay me." So, it's the last time I'll be going to that groomer.

And really, people, go to Kidney Stone Diet, the Instagram page, you'll see what I'm talking about. I've never—it looks like a totally different dog. And I said to him, "Look, you get away with a lot of stuff because you're cute, and you ain't no more.

So, you're on thin ice here until your hair grows back, which may be a year." It's that short. There's no hair on this dog. So, he has a little tuft of hair on his head and his tail.

That's it. Otherwise, he was shaved to the skin. So, that's my story about Finn.

He's not happy. He's resting until it grows back, and he's not been happy, I will tell you. And I'm not happy, and everybody that sees him around the block, their reaction is [gasp].

I'm like, "Did you get a new dog? Or are you early for Halloween?" I'm like, "Oh, God." It's a custom.

It's so disorienting. And just to show up and not know that's happening, too. I mean, that's—joke's aside, that's like, that's not cool.

Yes, I—you know.

But—

Not cool. I was taken aback, to say the least. So, you know, but it's hair.

It grows back. We all know I have a good sense of humor. It's not the worst thing that's ever happened in my life.

Maybe his, because he's only a year and change, but not my life at almost 60. So, yeah, it's all good, man.

Yeah. Well, what do you say we dive into a listener question?

Yeah, okay, let's go.

Hi, Jill and Jeff. My name is Austin, and I live in Missouri. And I just had a question.

I was diagnosed with my first stone about a month ago. And since then, I've been on a low oxalate diet, getting plenty of natural calcium with every meal, watching salt and sugar, getting several liters of water a day. So, those have all been pretty sensible and easy changes to make.

But one area where I'm really struggling is just kind of with just this depression and this sort of alienated feeling, not being able to go out to breakfast with family members, or a date night with my wife, or being able to participate in church activities because everything everybody wants to eat is like pizza, or pancakes, or sweets, or french fries.

And cutting all of that stuff out of my diet, along with nuts and chocolate and other things, is just really been hard. I know that everybody's just very confused, and they feel alienated. They think I'm going way too far with this, but I just want to take this seriously.

But I guess I'm just wondering, is there's just kind of a sense of depression and self-loathing and anger that's come along with this, because I just hate that I got myself into this position. And I just feel like my entire future is just so limited and over, not being able to eat or do much of anything without worrying about making more of these.

So, I'm just wondering, is this normal? Or is this something that will eventually get better and improve? Because it's like going from seeing the world in Technicolor to monochrome.

And it's just really hard to have the energy and enthusiasm for life when I can't participate in things anymore. But if that's what it takes to be healthy, then that's what I have to do. So, I was just wanting some advice if this is a temporary feeling, or if it's not, how do I make this kind of depression and anger and anxiety work for me instead of against me?

So, thank you both for all that you do, and have a great day, and God bless you.

Oh, God bless you, too, Austin. I, you know, these are—I know everyone wants to talk about oxalate, and low salt, and the Kidney Stone Diet stuff. I get that.

But I'm always—I'm interested in all of it, folks, but the thing that I'm most attracted to are people like Austin and his feelings, because you know, being somebody who has illness in her life, and working with patients who have had illness for the past almost 25 years, Austin, I can't tell you how common this is. You are so not alone.

In the Kidney Stone Prevention Course, we have the videos, but also we have these group calls that come with the course for the first month, and you work with me and all the people in those group calls, and these are the kinds of things we talk about. And it's really important, no matter what kind of illness you're dealing with, you are going to feel angry, because like he said, "I feel like I got myself into this mess." You're going to feel isolated, because the whole world is going on without you, or so it seems.

And you're going to feel depressed, because you're like, "What the hell life is this going to be if I can't have pizza here and there?" So, when you first have a kidney stone or any illness, if you're taking it seriously, you really change your whole life and you want to change it right away. And so, what we do as human beings is we think that we have to go a hundred miles the opposite way of where we just were, and you don't have to do that.

So, as far as your—let's let's talk about your feelings one by one. Feelings of anger. You said you feel angry because you got yourself into this mess.

You did not know what you did not know. So, take that blame right away. Get rid of it, okay?

Because that's not going to help you going forward, and you didn't know what you didn't know. I can't tell you how many people say to me, "Jill, I thought I was eating healthy. Look what I did to myself." Nobody here did anything to themselves, all right?

You can say, "Well, I ate crap food, Jill, all the time. I did do something to myself." But guys, it's just not helpful to you. It's not going to keep you in the game.

It's not going to motivate you. It's going to depress you. It's going to make you feel like, "What the hell?

I can't win. I'm a loser." All the negative things that doesn't push someone forward in life. So, stop this negative self-talk.

Austin, everybody does it, so I'm not just talking to you right now, I'm hollering at everybody. My newsletter was just on this. Negative self-talk.

First of all, want you to think about this. Negative self-talk, we didn't—we weren't born that way. We grew up with it.

And now we're doing the same things to ourselves. We're talking to ourselves the same way we were talked to. So, we learned this behavior.

Unlearn it. It's not helpful for growth. That's number one.

You didn't do anything, Austin. So, that's number one. Feeling alienated and isolated, let's talk about that.

Because of my bowel issues, I can't go out to eat. So, typically, if someone's like—and all my friends know this, so there's there's things that I do. A lot of my friends will have dinner parties, so I'm close to a bathroom, so I'll I'll do dinner parties.

My friends will say, "Hey, we're going out. How about you just come for a glass of wine or just come and just come and keep us company?" I'll do that. And so, so I'm really restricted, so I understand how that feels, okay?

But you're not. You guys are not as restricted as you think you are. You can go out to eat.

You can go to the church function, the potluck. First of all, if there's things like potluck, bring a healthy dish for yourself. There's always that option.

If people are going out and having pizza and pasta and all the stuff, you can have half of that. You can lower your portion. When you lower your portion, it will be less salt, sugar, and all the stuff.

You can choose a healthier version. You can say, "I don't care what Jill says. I'm enjoying myself tonight." And you can watch your sodium and added sugar and all your goals throughout the day up until that out-to-eat meal.

You don't have to have an appetizer, a main course, a dessert, three glasses of wine. I like always having the drink, so I'll have the drink and forego other things, okay? Because I don't drink that much, so sometimes I want to have a buzz, have a good time, and that's what I want to do.

But you may say, "Listen, Sissy, I'll give up the wine. I'm having dessert." So, you don't have to have—and I'll say this a million times—why in God's name are we having appetizers? We don't do that at home, but we do it out to eat.

You don't have to have appetizers. Or maybe you have two appetizers and don't have a main, or maybe you split your meals. The point is, there's many ways to skin a cat here.

So, but Austin, that does not mean all my patients that work with me, they learn that they could keep their Friday night pizza. That's not a problem. Don't have five pieces, have two, watch how much salt you have for lunch.

Know, everybody, everybody know this, one of my main teachings: nobody here is going to be perfect with lifestyle. The diet industry has taught us that's what we're supposed to do, otherwise we suck and we're failing at it. That's bullshit, it's not true.

You do—you go for your Friday night pizza because that's what the family's doing. You have, instead of five pieces, two pieces, a nice little side salad, you get up the next day, get right back to work. If you deprive yourself, Austin, you will continue to feel depressed.

You will continue to feel isolated. You will continue to feel angry. So, don't do that.

Every single one of my patients can remain stone-free while still enjoying their favorite foods. You want ice cream? I don't care.

Can you have two scoops instead of three? Can you watch your added sugar then for the rest of the day? Like I said, you're not going to make your goals every day, people.

The point is you're better than you were before you started making stones. And let me promise you this: right now, this just happened to you, lovey, a month ago. So, you're doing all these things and, of course, it's going to feel so hard and like you have no life, and like you can't do anything again.

And the reason I'm smiling at this is because I can't wait for you to feel differently, because you're going to. So, what I do most of my day is I start bringing foods back to patients. "Jill, I could never have this again?" You could have it, as a matter of fact, have it.

Just don't have it every day like you used to. You want some chocolate? Have it, make sure you get your calcium needs met every day.

You want to go out to eat on Fridays? Still go out to eat, make a little better choices or eat what you usually do and get right back to work. The problem is people eat like crap, then they're like, "I feel like I'm disgusting.

I can't do nothing. I'm hopeless." And they continue to eat unhealthy foods. Knock that off.

Consistency is the number one thing when you're trying to do a lifestyle change. And also, Austin, this is super important. We talk about this a lot, too, in the Kidney Stone Prevention group calls with me.

"Jill, people are worried about me. They say I've taken this too far." You've got to remember, Austin, if you're surrounded with people who are eating burgers and fries and pizza all day long and cake and candy and all this stuff like they're 12 years old, they are really—what's really going on here is your new healthy lifestyle is providing them a mirror in which to look at theirs.

And they may not like what they see. So, of course, they're going to think that you've taken this over the top. So, this is a whole other video, what I'm about to say, but many people will say, "My friends always talk about what I am eating.

They always are talking about it and it's bothering me." And that's just because they feel insecure about their own lifestyle and they notice you're eating so much healthier and they still aren't. So, you're going to see that people are going to give you what-for, a little bit, a lot a bit, and it's going to be annoying.

Now, there's a flip side to this, Austin. It could be that you are taking this too far. It sounds kind of like to me that you are, because you're giving up going out to eat, you're just sitting at the church function not eating anything, so you could be taking it too far.

And this, my friend, is also very, very common, because everyone is so focused on the goals that, God forbid, they go a bit over the 25 or, for you, 37.5, 38 grams of added sugar, you're going to do that. It's totally fine. Again, it's getting right back to work.

So, you are being too hard on yourself, so knock that off. That I'm kind of always harsh with because, you know, and that's—that's a lifetime of work, because we're always trying to do that. We're always trying to not negative self-talk.

You'll practice that for the rest of your life. But as far as going out to eat and church functions and all that, please still enjoy your life. You can have pizza, it's not a problem.

Yes, you're going to blow your salt limit for the day, but think about how it used to be. You'd have the pizza, the burger, the chips, the whole thing all day long. Now, you're just going to have a few pieces of pizza and a salad, you're going to watch your salt for the rest of the day.

It's going to be so much better than it was. And one more thing, because there always is with me, right now, it's only been a few weeks. Wait till you get to the 6-month mark.

And I always tell people, give yourself 6 months to a year for real dietary changes to feel like a lifestyle. And in 6 months, Austin, you're going to be like, "I don't know how I used to eat that, it's so salty." I'm not exaggerating. I'm telling you.

And anybody who's listening to me in the comments, if you're already there, I want you to comment so you can make Austin feel better and say, "Yes, Austin, I'm there. Now when I look back on my diet and I'm eating a healthier way today, I can't—I can't believe I ate all that salt and sugar." So, please help him out, guys.

He's new. And so if you can put in the comments, how much your taste buds have changed over the last several months of doing the Kidney Stone Diet, it would probably really help him out. And so it's a—I can't tell you, when you guys come here and you tell us how you're feeling so we can really address this, because everyone feels this.

Not everybody has the wherewithal to bring it publicly. So, this is my sweet spot. I love talking about this because as a patient myself with my own illness, this is how we feel when we are sick.

It's terrible. And this is why I'm so passionate about what I do, because I want to keep people from being sick. That's the goal here, folks.

So, you got anything to say, Jeff? What do you think? What do you think about Austin?

Yeah, it's—Yeah, it's like you say, portion, not perfection. And you're not going to—you're not going to make a stone in a day, either. One meal, one party, one event, like that isn't going to form the stone.

It's years and decades of habits. And this is—these are just improved habits that we're setting forth. So, yeah, don't beat yourself up.

Don't like—we are all fallible people. That is just what we are, and we do our best with what we have and how we're equipped. And we're hoping to just equip you as best as we can moving forward so then you can the second half of the tagline to "Live your best life." That's the whole goal.

Yes. Yep. I mean, it's just there's—it's all the all the feelings that he listed that he has, everybody has.

He's just his—he was just eloquent in communicating them with us. And like I said, that's what this channel is about. This channel is not about, you know, this channel is about getting real with being ill and all the feelings that it brings up.

And again, this is what we talk about in the group calls with me. These are the things—this is the important part, because if you don't discuss this kind of stuff when you're sick, there's no way you're going to adhere to a lifestyle change. Listen to what he said, depressed, angry, isolated.

Nothing good is going to come from this. That will be somebody who gives up, because those feelings are the worst feelings in the world, no matter if you're changing a lifestyle, a job, a partner, or whatever. The feelings that we have, and they're just human feelings, we all experience—we all experience them, and we all want to run from them.

So, with lifestyle change, if you're feeling those feelings, the thing that you're going to want the most is a hot dog or a hamburger to make you feel better. It's just not motivating when we're coming from that place. Once he gets—once Austin gets a perspective on how much better he's going to feel and know that he can still do his favorite foods and this and that, he's—it's just going to all change.

And one day, it always happens, the light bulb goes off with people and they're like, "Oh, I get this. Took me a little minute to get here, but now the waves are parting and I feel so much better." And Austin, I can't wait for you to get there, because I promise you, you will. I've talked to thousands of people over the year.

It takes them a second, but they all get there. And then your heart opens up and you really enjoy your lifestyle, and it just propels you to keep on, keep on, keep on. Next thing you know, you're going to the gym, or you're taking walks, or whatever you're doing.

I'm just so excited for about for what is about to come for you. And as far as the people in your life that are saying you're taking it too far, number one question to ask yourself, are you? And number two is when you settle all that and you're not taking it too far, and you do realize you can do the things you want to do just in, you know, normal portions and, you know, the amount of time you do it, you can't go out to eat every day and stay on a low salt diet, obviously.

But once you once you get all this together, you could just say to the people, you know, once they see you going out to eat and just eating less, maybe you'll inspire other people. I can't tell you how many partners start losing weight with the person who forms kidney stones, or grandchildren participate in marathons with their grandmother.

Believe me, it just—it just cascades down the line. It's a wonderful thing. So, I'm excited for you.

I'm excited about your next chapter, Austin, because it's going to be fricking amazing.

Yeah, change is hard for us and the people around us. So, it's a learning sort of experience for everyone involved. But yeah, it will—it will swing back around.

That's just—it's the nature of life and how we how we, each deal with change in our own way.

Yes. What's the hardest thing that you've ever tried to change, Jeff, if you could say one thing? I know you're always working on change as well.

But what would you say is one of the really the hardest things that you are like, "You know what? I really want to do this. I want to make this change, but damn, it's hard, and it was hard for you.

But now when you look back, you're like, ' pretty good. Feel good about it.'" Anything come to mind?

I feel like I would need some time to think about it. I don't off the top of my head, because obviously, yeah, change is every—

What about when you went Paleo? You did Paleo. Was that hard for you?

Yeah. Yeah, I mean it was—it was one of those things where there was that tipping point where I realized I had so much more mental clarity, I just felt better, I wasn't run down in the like the 2:00 p.m. Crash after lunch kind of thing when I back when I had a job, this is many years ago now.

But yeah, there was—it was feeling that change and feeling the benefits that then made it arguably easy. But I mean you mentioned Paleo, the people around me definitely were not interested in that, because that's sort of the thing is we're like, "Oh, no, this is amazing. I feel great.

Like you need to hear about it, too." And then everyone's like, "I don't want to change. I don't want to I don't want to do what you're doing." It's—it becomes sort of a even if you we're not talking about it, it's almost a passive like a passive critique of them. Like they can feel like, "Oh, you're being critical of me because you're doing this and I don't do that." Just sort of like what you said, it's different from what they're used to.

But with time, it just becomes just the new normal, the new normal all the way around. And yeah, just like me, I've been gluten-free now for 13 years, I think. And like basically low like low carb, not like keto or nothing, no specific metrics, but all these things, it's just normal.

Like I couldn't imagine Like right now, I can't even think to how I was before, because this is how I've eaten for so long, it's just the way I approach lifestyle. Yeah.

It's your lifestyle. Yeah, it's just what it is, right? And it—you know, and the other thing about lifestyle is, say you're on vacation or whatever and you've eaten a little bit different than your normal lifestyle, we talk about this a lot, too, can't wait to get back to it.

You're like, "Oh, my God, I can't wait to eat my own food and make my meal and not worry about," because you have more control. And even though it's fun for a little while, your taste buds at that point have changed and you can't wait to get back to your normal lifestyle. And that's when you know it's become part of you, it's just is what it is, right?

Just like people who are like, you know, eating junk food all the time, that's their lifestyle. And God bless them, I don't care what people do, it's none of my business, I can only focus on me. So, you know, your lifestyle becomes it when you when you can't wait to get back to it, then you know you got yourself a lifestyle.

That's the difference.

Definitely. Well, yeah, I think that's a great spot to wrap, and thank you again, Austin, for the question. That is very valuable for everyone.

And like those are the kinds of questions, if you're out there and you're wondering if you're alone in your feelings or whatever you're experiencing, definitely call in or join the group calls with Jill, which you can find on the site, and sort of talk in a more private, space, because, of course, this is a very public space, so we really appreciate Austin and anyone else who's comfortable sharing amongst the community, because it's very valuable.

But if you're out there and you have a question, the number is 773-789-8763. Or if you're outside of the US, you can send a voice memo, you can record it on your phone, and just email it to [email protected], and we would love to feature you on a future episode. And to find everything, all the free resources, the premium resources, just everything Kidney Stone Diet, you can go to kidneystonediet.com, and you can find things like the group calls, the Kidney Stone Prevention Course, the meal plans, just everything.

It's a one-stop shop for everything, everything Kidney Stone Diet.

Yes, it is. And don't forget to subscribe. We're closing in.

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Thank you, Austin. Wonderful question. I appreciate you.