# Why you’re a lifelong kidney stone maker Source: https://kidneystonediet.com/ep/why-youre-a-lifelong-kidney-stone-maker/ Published: 2024-08-13 --- [![Kidney Stone Diet Podcast](https://kidneystonediet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Kidney-Stone-Diet-Podcast-1-1024x1024.jpg)](https://kidneystonediet.com/podcast/) [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pty2NqWlfx0)[Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/why-youre-a-lifelong-kidney-stone-maker/id1528474326?i=1000665152833&uo=4)[Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/4cRr2EKdTmCTZACgk4vL7b)[Amazon Music](https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/0868148d-adfd-411d-b3f2-71a0ad1461ec) August 13, 2024 --- ![Jeff Sarris](https://kidneystonediet.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/Jeff-Sarris-150x150.jpg) Jeff Sarris Host ![Jill Harris](https://kidneystonediet.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/Kidney-Stone-Diet-Jill-Harris-150x150.jpg) Jill Harris Host In this episode, Jill answers a listener’s question about kidney stones. She discusses the importance of lifestyle management in preventing kidney stones and the lack of attention given to this aspect in the medical field. She emphasizes the need for urine collection to understand the causes of stone formation and the importance of the Kidney Stone Diet which includes goals beyond just low oxalate intake. She also provides specific advice on tomato consumption and the importance of variety in one’s diet. \ **Takeaways** - Lifestyle management is crucial in preventing kidney stones. - Urine collection is necessary to understand the causes of stone formation. - The Kidney Stone Diet includes goals beyond just low oxalate intake. - Tomato consumption should be varied and mindful of sodium content. ## Chapters - 00:00:00 Lifelong Kidney Stone Formation Voicemail - 00:01:42 Lifestyle Management Gaps in Kidney Stone Care - 00:04:12 Interpreting Oxalate Levels on Urine Tests - 00:07:22 Oxalate Content in Tomatoes and Diet Variety - 00:09:52 Sodium Limits and Kidney Stone Diet Guidelines ## Transcript ### Lifelong Kidney Stone Formation Voicemail 00:00:00 Jeff Sarris This week we have a listener question. Someone's been a stone maker for 34 years and we might actually have some insight as to why. Welcome back to the Kidney Stone Diet podcast, the show about reducing your kidney stone risk and living your best life. I'm your host and fellow student, Jeff Sarris. 00:00:25 Jill Harris And I'm Jill Harris, your kidney stone prevention nurse. 00:00:27 Jeff Sarris So, we're here with another listener voicemail. The number is 773-789-8763 if you're out there with a question. So, why don't you– why don't we just dive right in to Cheri's question. 00:00:41 Jill Harris Let's go. Hi. Yes, my name is Cheri Cabel. I live in Savannah, Georgia. And I've had a lot of kidney stones over the past years since I was 18 and I'm 52. They just told me about this oxalate diet that I just started back in February. But, also, I'm trying to get all my vegetables and everything, so I'm starting making this soup with tomato puree tomatoes and diced tomatoes. Is that okay? And I eat a bowl of that for like four days a week and no meats. Is that getting too much oxalate or is that okay to eat and making sure I get my vegetables in? I love watching your videos, Jill. Thank you, both. God bless and amen. ### Lifestyle Management Gaps in Kidney Stone Care 00:01:42 Jill Harris Cheri baby. Cheri baby. Cheri, 30 years, over 30 years. This is not uncommon, folks. It's just– it's not uncommon. And it makes me crazy. It makes me crazy, specifically because she said, "I've been making stones for 30 years." What does that mean? Let's break it on down, 'cause I get real hot when it comes to this. Stones. She hasn't said this particulars, but what I hear on the average, "I've made stones my whole life, Jill. I've had 10, 15 surgeries. I've lost count. I am now laid off. I have no money. I can't–" I mean, the list goes on and on. But the thing that I hear the most is exactly what Cheri said, "I've made stones my whole life, and I'm just being told something now." That's terrible. And this is why Jeff and I get up every day and we do this. Because there is, or there has been– there has been a lack of help in this field. Why? Because we're asking surgeons, urologists, to talk about diet. Well, they don't have time for that. There was not the knowledge, maybe the research wasn't there, wasn't being disseminated, it wasn't– I don't know. But for whatever reason, kidney stone formers have been overlooked as far as the medical management and the lifestyle management, mostly lifestyle management. Not medical, I take that back. Lifestyle management. And most of you can prevent your new kidney stones and prevent the ones you have currently from growing by making lifestyle changes, but you don't know what you don't know. And if you have a doctor or you just have not been asked to do a urine collection, you don't know why you're forming stones. The number one thing is you need to ask for a urine collection. So, Cheri said, in February she was told to go on a low-oxalate diet. What does that mean? We have to be specific about that, too. So here's what I'm going to tell you. ### Interpreting Oxalate Levels on Urine Tests 00:04:12 Jill Harris I've seen people recently on the internet that says, "You don't have to worry about oxalate unless you have high oxalate." Well, first of all, you need a urine collection, okay? And then, let's be careful how we word things to patients, because when they get that advice, 'cause they've been given that advice, whether it's on the internet, from their doctor, whatever, what we say as healthcare professionals and what patients interpret our words as are two different things. So, I've heard that before. "My doctor said I don't have to worry about low oxalate. My dietitian said I don't have to worry about low oxalate. Look at my urine collection. It's low." So, patients, what do they do when they hear that? They start eating high-oxalate foods. "Oh, Jill, that's the silliest thing." I don't care what you think it is, I'm telling you what people do. So, when they see their result, they are not told this. So, I'll tell you what I do, or I'm not going to surmise what other people do. So, I'm looking at a urine collection, which I do all day long to help people understand their results, so they can be better prep for their doctor office visits and get the best treatment plan possible. The treatment plan is always going to be the Kidney Stone Diet, the goals of the Kidney Stone Diet, and they may need medications as well. But I will look at their oxalate and I'll say, "All right, Johnny. I see that oxalate's low. I see it's low! But I know by the time you did this urine collection, you weren't eating no spinach and almonds." "Oh, hell no, Jill. I took those right away, 'cause that's all over the internet. My doctor knew that, too. He said, 'Don't eat spinach and almonds.'" Now, we're really supposed to do the first urine collection exactly– we eat exactly how we did when we made stones, but most of you are not going to eat spinach and almonds. I'm not dumb, I get that. But the advice that should come with that low-oxalate value is not this: "Oh, you don't got to worry about oxalate," because then people think, "They're done. It's fixed, no more." Well, that urine collection represents a one-day look on how you ate and drank. If you go over tomorrow and eat two cups of quinoa– quinoa! Your oxalate's going to be super high, all right? So, we've got to be very careful of that. The Kidney Stone Diet and lowering your risk of kidney stones is not just about oxalate. It's about all the goals: lowering salt, lowering added sugar, getting enough calcium, drinking enough fluids, not eating a side of beef all day long. And, yes, watching oxalate. But just because yours is low on a urine collection doesn't mean you can go overeat it now, for the rest of your life, 'cause it was low that day. But if you do something different tomorrow, you got a whole different results. So, I just– I have to say that. It's very important. I've heard this more and more lately, so we've got to be careful of what advice we're giving. So, back to Cheri. ### Oxalate Content in Tomatoes and Diet Variety 00:07:22 Jill Harris Cheri, I got to ask you, you need to call back, girl. You need to call back, and Jeff will give the number again. You need to call back, though, and tell me why you're eating tomatoes four days a week. You just said that you're trying to get more vegetables. Tomatoes are fruit. I know we all think it's a vegetable, but you're eating them every single day. So, the question is, is that cool? That's what Cheri's going to ask, but I'm going to give her more information. So, Harvard studied them and tomatoes, ripe red tomatoes, are 3 mg for two slices. Tomato sauce, half a cup, is 17 mg. So, you eating that to, you know, it's not low oxalate, but you can certainly have it. But I'm going to push back and say, why are you eating the same thing every single day? One of my biggest mantras is, let's mix it up, people. Let's eat a wide variety of food and mix it up. Many of you got kidney stones 'cause you ate the same three foods over and over again that were really high in oxalate, and that's what caused the problem along with not getting enough calcium, and of course, eating too much sugar and salt and not enough fluids, okay? That's– that's the common scenario. Cheri may say, "Well, what the hell, Jill? I'm one person and I don't want to throw out the soup, so I'm eating the leftovers." Okay, I hear that. I hear that, too. But could we put some other things in the soup, maybe? Maybe we massage some kale and saute some kale and throw that in there? Maybe we put some onions in there, maybe we put in other vegetables that you may like, maybe a little corn. I don't know, whatever you like. Maybe some green beans. Let's mix it up, buttercup, and get more veggies in there. Now, could you have that? Absolutely. So, that's just me going down a little nutrition trail. We should mix up our foods and tomatoes are not vegetables, they are fruits. And the average American should have two cups of fruits a day, two cups, and three cups of veggies. Nobody's getting that. Nobody's getting that. And, you know, grapes and corn every day, mix it up again. There's a lot of vegetables, a lot of fruits. So, Cheri, maybe it's just a week that, you know, you had leftovers and you're eating that every day. It's just not the most nutritious thing, is what I'm going to say. Also, make sure those tomatoes, the diced and the other ones that you're eating, are lower salt. So, turn it around, Buster Brown, and look at that– that can that you're using. Make sure they're lower sodium. So, lots of times when I get diced tomatoes, if you go into the tomato sauce section, you're going to see five, six different brands of diced tomatoes. ### Sodium Limits and Kidney Stone Diet Guidelines 00:09:52 Jill Harris I always get the lowest sodium one. And when you're looking at a can and it says low sodium and then the one next to it says low sodium, turn them both around. They may be very different in sodium. Just because, you know, and so I'll end that there. Look for the lowest sodium. So, that's another thing I'm going to point out. The other thing I'm going to point out, the oxalate is the least important thing. Pay attention to salt, added sugar, go to kidneystonediet.com, look at all the Kidney Stone Diet goals. You can Google "What is the Kidney Stone Diet?" Okay, so you understand all of it, not just an oxalate list. So, at the beginning of this video, I said we should be, you know, we should be a little bit paying care careful, we should be paying attention, sorry folks, pay attention to how we're wording things about the oxalate. Just because you don't have high oxalate on a urine collection doesn't mean you should still not pay attention to that goal. 100 mg of oxalate a day, however you want to cut it up. You want tomatoes? That's wonderful. Like I said, tomato sauce for 1/2 a cup, 17 mg of oxalate. Minus that from 100, you still have plenty to eat. Get your calcium needs met every day. I want you to call back and tell me a little bit more about your diet and actually we can talk about it in a video, how to change a diet so it's a little bit more well rounded. Maybe you say in the call, "Jill, these are the three vegetables I like," okay? And we can do something with that. "And also I like this, how do we make–" You know, so, but I want you, before you call back, I'm happy to help you, but before you call back, I want you to Google "What is the Kidney Stone Diet? Jill Harris" and you'll see what the goals are and ask some more questions in your call when you call back, like "What about low salt? What about–" We'll we'll talk about it, because I want to help you because you've had stones for 30 years, over 30 years, and you're just getting help now. And this is so very common, folks. Now, I think more people are talking about it. I've been the longest one screaming about kidney stones on the internet. More people are now doing it, so that's great. And you know, the more people the better as long as the sources are good. And when we have good sources on the internet, then doctors can learn and get more focus and give the right information out. And again, they're surgeons, so their focus on getting those stones out as safely as they can from your body. But I want you to I want you to call back, Cheri, we got a lot more to talk about. I want to know why you're eating the tomato sauce four days a week. Is that going to be your lunch like for the rest of your life? Like what are you thinking? How can I help you? Call back and we'll we'll help you more. 00:12:42 Jeff Sarris Yeah, and that number again is 773-789-8763. And you can find everything at kidneystonediet.com right on the homepage now. You scroll down to the Kidney Stone Diet goals, you'll see all of them right there with details. And then if you want to dive deep, there's the Kidney Stone Prevention Course. 00:12:59 Jill Harris Oh, and, Jeff, let me tell you, Cheri, Cheri, baby, Cheri, the there is a an oxalate food list and you can just go on kidneystonediet.com website or just Google "oxalate food list Jill", and you it will take you right to the page and you can type in "tomatoes" and you will see the oxalate value. And for all of you folks that are looking for a reliable oxalate list, go to my website, and Jeff has made a beautiful, searchable engine where you can just put your what you're looking for and it will come right up. You can also put that on your phone and it will act like an app. So, Jeff also made that, and you can get that at kidneystonediet.com/help and that's very helpful for people. 00:13:42 Jeff Sarris Yeah, absolutely, and that's all based on Harvard research, so it's not anything We didn't make up these numbers. They've been researched multiple times and used for decades by Jill with thousands of patients. So, we know that they're valid and exactly what you need. So, with that, we'll wrap. If you're watching on YouTube, YouTube thinks you'll like one of these videos here, and we'll see you next time. 00:14:02 Jill Harris Thanks, Cheri. Please call back, tell us more, tell us more.