# Is milk bad for kidney stones? Source: https://kidneystonediet.com/ep/is-milk-bad-for-kidney-stones/ Published: 2022-02-08 --- [![Kidney Stone Diet Podcast](https://kidneystonediet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Kidney-Stone-Diet-Podcast-1-1024x1024.jpg)](https://kidneystonediet.com/podcast/) [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXpxE30jxpY)[Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/is-milk-bad-for-kidney-stones/id1528474326?i=1000596327735&uo=4)[Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/24Cy1IQtVh7G7xZh37A3Oh)[Amazon Music](https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/0868148d-adfd-411d-b3f2-71a0ad1461ec) February 8, 2022 --- ![Jeff Sarris](https://kidneystonediet.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/Jeff-Sarris-150x150.jpg) Jeff Sarris Host ![Jill Harris](https://kidneystonediet.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/Kidney-Stone-Diet-Jill-Harris-150x150.jpg) Jill Harris Host This week on the Kidney Stone Diet Podcast, Jill Harris answers the frequently asked question: Is milk bad for kidney stones? Have a question? Leave us a voicemail at (773) 789-8763.\  \  **= Stop your kidney stones once and for all =**\ • [Kidney Stone Prevention Course](https://kidneystonediet.com/kidney-stone-prevention)\ • [Kidney Stone Diet Meal Plans](https://kidneystonediet.com/mealplans/)\ • [24 Hour Urine Collection Analysis](https://kidneystonediet.com/24-hour-urine-analysis/)\ • [Private Coaching](https://kidneystonediet.com/coaching/) **= FREE Kidney Stone Resources =**\ • [Kidney Stone Diet](https://kidneystonediet.com/)\ • [Free Kidney Stone Diet Resources](https://kidneystonediet.com/resources/)\ • [Oxalate Food List](https://kidneystonediet.com/oxalate-list/)\ • [Kidney Stone Diet Recipes](https://kidneystonediet.com/recipes/) Find more episodes of the Kidney Stone Diet Podcast at [kidneystonediet.com/podcast](https://kidneystonediet.com/podcast) **= Who is Jill Harris? =**\ [youtube.com/TheKidneyStoneDiet](https://www.youtube.com/TheKidneyStoneDiet) Jill is a nurse and health coach that specializes in educating patients on kidney stone prevention. For more than 20 years she’s helped patients understand that kidney stones can be prevented with the right treatment plan. It’s one thing to be told to lower oxalate or drink more water, but HOW do you do it? That’s where she comes in. Through the educational resources at [kidneystonediet.com](https://kidneystonediet.com/), stone formers can learn everything they need to know to significantly lower new stone risk. **= Who is Jeff Sarris? =**\ [youtube.com/jeffsarris](https://youtube.com/jeffsarris) Jeff’s co-founder of [SPYR](https://spyr.me/), a branding agency based out of Chicago, where he and his business partner Dave help awesome people like Jill create online platforms that make an impact. He’s also a certified health coach, Executive Producer of the Netflix documentary Minimalism, and host of the [Starting Now podcast](https://spyr.fm/now). Reach out on Twitter! [@jeffSARRIS](https://twitter.com/jeffSARRIS) ## Chapters - 00:00:00 Podcast Studio Ambiance and Studio Setup - 00:03:31 YouTube Channel Engagement and Video Rankings - 00:05:46 Is Milk Bad for Kidney Stones? - 00:09:28 How Calcium Binds Oxalate in the Gut - 00:12:28 Types of Calcium Stones and Urine Tests - 00:15:19 Bone Density Risk and Idiopathic Hypercalciuria - 00:17:17 Dietary Sodium Reduction and Calcium Retention ## Transcript ### Podcast Studio Ambiance and Studio Setup 00:00:00 Jeff Sarris Welcome back to the Kidney Stone Diet podcast, the show about reducing your kidney stone risk and living your best life. I'm your host and fellow student, Jeff Sarris. 00:00:18 Jill Harris And I'm Jill Harris, your kidney stone prevention nurse. Jeff, you see that thing in the back of your head, that beautiful moon-like thing? Is that Is that going to be like an orange glow if that were to be the only light in there in your room? 00:00:33 Jeff Sarris So, it does have the nice orange or even a blue light on it, but it isn't super bright. And I actually don't know how much longer that'll stay going because like I didn't charge it today. But it's a wireless kind of thing that I just turn on. And yeah, I like it though. 00:00:49 Jill Harris Oh, I see. Yeah, I like I like glows in the background. I don't want a light. I like just I love a good room with ambiance. And I know people on Spotify and Apple Tunes or whatever the hell it is, like, "Well, that's all great, but we can't see nothing!" But I do love like an ambiance, just a glow, a warm. I love that, makes me so happy, you know. 00:01:10 Jeff Sarris Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and like I feel like my spot here is all right. I do have the squattrack right here. It's my gym/office/everything, but I know it's not perfectly aesthetically pleasing. But at the same time, I wanted to balance it a little bit. It's a space that I spend a lot of time in. And anyone who watched the early episodes, The ones where the camera was off to the side or over my shoulder, I would actually be sitting just right here, just directly to my left. I just wouldn't move everything over. But this just works out better. Like this is a more efficient way to produce these, because editing with multi-cam multiple cameras takes a lot of time. So, yeah, we just moved over to this, and I don't know, I'm happy with it with where it's at. 00:01:49 Jill Harris Well, I'm happy with it, too. Not that anyone gives a damn what I think about how you live, but I'm just saying it goes with the whole vibe. That rack is very industrial, so it does You would not know that's a piece of exercise equipment. 00:02:02 Jeff Sarris Yeah, I was I was actually looking at it last episode, wondering if you could tell that's what it is. But, yeah, so I bought it off of Craigslist a handful of years ago. Super cheap, but it's a full squat rack with like a pull-up bar in the middle, and it's really nice. Yeah, and but it was so cheap, but it's like beat up and rusty. I've been meaning to strip it down and paint it, so maybe one day it'll be It'll look like new back there, just cuz, I don't know, I like doing stuff like that, taking it and making it look better. But it's not a priority, so we'll see. 00:02:28 Jill Harris No, and the vibe is rockin', so I'm all about it. And also, I'd like to bring up for people that can't see, it was Dolly Parton's 76th birthday this week and so I got myself a little rock and roll Dolly Parton tee, which I You know why I love her? Is because she's just She's fun, and she's smart, and she's She's just kind. You've never heard a bad thing about Dolly Parton, and obviously she's been around a long time. She's like to me the Mr. Rogers of the country western scene, so I just I really I just enjoy her. I've even read some of the books that she's written, and I just appreciate her philosophy in life, and she just seems to be joyful to me. So, I just love her. And my god, the songs that woman has written, like she's a savant with it. And if you listen to some of her music, it's not the 9 to 5 kind of stuff, a lot of it is very It's it's dark, actually. So, her early music. So, anyway, I'm just doing a little ode to my Dolly, I love her so much. ### YouTube Channel Engagement and Video Rankings 00:03:31 Jeff Sarris I like it. Anyone who's just listening, we do have the YouTube version of the show. So, if you just look up Kidney Stone Diet Podcast or go to kidneystonediet.com/podcast, you can find the link to all the episodes or the channel, and subscribe, give it a thumbs up if you enjoy these shows, cuz it really it helps out. 00:03:48 Jill Harris Yeah, please do me a favor, and Jeff a favor. If you want to See, I'm going to hold you guys ransom. If you want to see Jeff's cat on this show ever again, you better press that subscribe button! What is it to you? Just click it, phew, like that! That's it! But we get We get more subscribers, and YouTube will be like, "Oh, they have more subscribers, let's put them first, so they get good information out to people, not junk!" 00:04:12 Jeff Sarris That's what's so important! And like it's everything it's hard to rank. Like ranking is a thing. If it's in social media, on Google, whatever it is, it's it's hard to get the really good information to the top. Like we work hard at it. We have good rankings, but it doesn't it doesn't mean that we have like a stronghold on being able to help people find this these answers. And it's not finding the products, it's not buying the products, it's finding just the correct answers. 00:04:42 Jill Harris Yeah, I don't care about that. Yeah. Right. 00:04:43 Jeff Sarris Yeah. 00:04:43 Jill Harris I want the right answers. People are sick, and they need to have the right answers so they get less confused, and they're able to take care of themselves better, the end. 00:04:52 Jeff Sarris Yeah. 00:04:53 Jill Harris Good job. 00:04:54 Jeff Sarris So, with that, I think we'll dive into this episode. And oh, yeah, and along the lines of my cat, Alpha, he was laying on the chair in the sun in the other room. I grabbed him, brought him in here, and he's like, " I want to go back to the sun," and he took off. So, hopefully, I'll I will get him. I'm really not trying to just dangle this carrot every episode. It feels like this is some big ploy that eventually we'll have like We'll have cat merch, so now you can buy my cat on your shirt. No, none of that. This is just like I don't want to bother him, but at the same time, hopefully, we can get him get him in here for a bit. 00:05:23 Jill Harris I don't know, Jeff, maybe it just becomes like he's the Stanley of Will & Grace that you never see or the Charlie of Charlie's Angels that you never see. Maybe Alpha becomes that. 00:05:34 Jeff Sarris That would be really funny. I apologize in advance, everyone, if you're if you're waiting, but, yeah, we'll see what happens. 00:05:41 Jill Harris It's a cat. It's a cat, so you don't know if he's going to appear or not. Don't know. 00:05:46 Jeff Sarris Yeah, so if you have a question, the number is 773-789-8763. We have a few more that we'll be getting to in future episodes, but we wanted to touch on a an FAQ, of sorts. This is one that like the way it's phrased, I think, might actually be a little misleading, but there's a sort of a deeper question there. But the question being, "Is milk bad for kidney stones?" 00:06:12 Jill Harris Is milk bad for kidney stones? Let me put on my mittens and think. Why do you have mittens? I don't know, I just have mittens, it's been a long day. So, okay, so is milk 00:06:26 Jeff Sarris I got to say you look pretty cozy with those. Yeah, chin on your chin on your mittens, just hanging out. 00:06:33 Jill Harris Okay, so what why is milk bad for kidney stones? 00:06:37 Jeff Sarris Yeah, is milk bad for kidney stones? 00:06:39 Jill Harris Oh, is milk bad for kidney stones? N-O-P-E, nope. N-O-P-E, nope. So, there's always people in the background that are going to say, "Dairy will kill you! Nobody drinks, you know, mother's milk, ever," well, all the stuff. So, listen, if you want to use dairy to get your calcium, that's wonderful. So, that's just a side note. Sorry, real quick, I just I love that you're wearing those mittens. It's just cracking me up. We're going to have to make this a thing, too. You never know what I'm going to bring into the mix, so it's mittens today. It could be earmuffs the next episode. So, well, it's very cold here in Chicago, and I have neuropathy, so my hands when and I'm right by my front door because there's just this much space, so everything's by my front door. So, there's a draft right here, and so my hands are tingling right now. So, the mittens feel They do feel cozy. Okay. Is milk bad for kidney stones? Is that right? 00:07:37 Jeff Sarris Yeah. Yeah. 00:07:38 Jill Harris Okay, so milk. Milk is not bad for kidney stones. If you are a non-dairy person, you don't have to listen to me at all. But it's not bad for kidney stones, that's the question. Whether you want to use dairy or not to get your calcium needs met is up to you. So, if you want to do it non-dairy, God bless. If you want to use dairy to get calcium, God bless. We welcome all. All sorts of calcium except pills, okay? Now, so really the bigger picture here is I can only imagine that somebody was asking because of this. "Well, Jill, I was told when I first got a stone in 1976, never have calcium. So, I gave up all my milk products. I stopped, I really made sure. The doctor said the stone was calcium, so I got rid of all my calcium. Now I went to the doctor," and probably somebody Googling that is probably like, "Okay, so now I went to the doctor, and they said to have calcium! So, let me ask Dr. Google. Is calcium okay For kidney stones?" Right? "Is milk okay for kidney stones?" So, again, what doctors used to, I'm not ragging on doctors, I'm just saying what was used to be thought, the guys got from 1942, if somebody has a calcium-based stone, get rid of all calcium. So, people listen to their doctor. Their stones got worse. How could this be? Well, if we don't have enough calcium, we cannot rid our bodies ### How Calcium Binds Oxalate in the Gut 00:09:28 Jill Harris Of the excess oxalate we eat and/or our body produces because oxalate is a byproduct of general metabolism, meaning our body will make some as well. So, the only way to get rid of that excess oxalate is to make sure you're getting enough calcium in your diet through food or beverage, so that it can connect with oxalate, calcium connects with oxalate in your intestines and leaves through the stool. So, patients that were told back in the day to stop having any kind of calcium food or drinks, got more stones because they had more oxalate in their system then. Also, this puts us at risk for bone disease. So, the calcium, Dr. Coe always says this, "Wherever you see a stone clinic, a bone clinic will be close by." The two go hand in hand because people are not getting enough calcium. Or, which is a whole other video, I have about 2,014 videos inside my heart, just so you know. There's a lot in here I can do. So, the because nutrition and learning lifestyle changes is complicated, and that's why you're watching this. This is complicated. So, when people come here, "I feel so dumb, I don't know." Well, how would you know? Where are they teaching this? That would be nowhere. So, of course, it's very complicated. So, it's important to get enough calcium, whether you get it through dairy or non-dairy sources. There's some nice articles on my website, kidneystonediet.com, on the blog. They will say here's some, you know, vegetarian sources, non-dairy sources of calcium. So, whatever way you choose to get it, whatever suits your medical conditions, whatever suits your ethics and your philosophy, do it that way, okay? So, is milk okay for kidney stones? It absolutely is. Get up to your needs met, not over, no one needs too much, and yeah. It's perfectly fine for kidney stone prevention. A lot of people use milk to get their protein needs met, to get their calcium needs met. Absolutely. 00:11:52 Jeff Sarris Yeah, and I think that's so important to sort of note because that whole calcium versus calcium oxalate stone question, like you just think like, "I've too much too much calcium, too much milk. That's why I have a stone." It's really like that was the thing that really just sort of blew my mind when we first started talking, like way before the show, like I was certain that was the issue. The issue was too much calcium in my kidney would cause a kidney stone. So, I need to be careful with that. But, yeah, knowing that's sort of that's it's honestly the antithesis of what we need to focus on. It's it's interesting. ### Types of Calcium Stones and Urine Tests 00:12:28 Jill Harris Yes, and it's very It is very interesting and it's very counterintuitive because the other deal is this. A doctor may just say you have a calcium stone and so patients say, "No, the my doctor said I have a calcium stone." And I will say, "I heard you, but what they just didn't explain the whole stone." There's no such thing as just a calcium stone. Calcium has to be bound with either oxalate or phosphate. So, your stone can be calcium oxalate, calcium phosphate, uric acid, a combination, struvite, which is a is a more rare a rarer stone, but those are stones that now have bacteria in them. Sepsis, dangerous. Those stones are terrible. Cystine stones, very rare. So, there's a whole bunch of different stones. But anytime your doctor says you have a calcium stone, it is bound with another mineral. It's bound with something else. They're just not giving you the whole thing. And so, it's very easy to extrapolate out that my doctor said I have a calcium stone and now you're telling me to have more calcium? This makes no sense whatsoever! Or, or, when I look at a urine collection, the patient says, "You're telling me I need more calcium and look at all the calcium. The lab report says you have way too much calcium in your urine, so why would I want to put more in there?" Well, in many cases, genetics come into play and this is why one needs a 24-hour urine collection. It's not just about getting rid of spinach, people. Again, this is complicated. So, there's many different factors, and this is why the Kidney Stone Diet is a set of goals, many different goals, not just one thing, to help you reduce your risk. So, the question is always posed to me on a daily basis, "Jill, I don't get this. You and the doctor both are telling me to get my calcium needs met, but I don't understand. Please tell me why he's telling me that, and now you're telling me that, when I have too much in my urine?" And this, sometimes, can be, most of the time, it's from eating too much salt, added sugar, or meat protein, and/or there's genetics in your family, and there's something called idiopathic hypercalciuria. What the hell is that? Idiopathic means we've ruled everything else out. Hyper, too much. Cal, calcium. Uria, urine. So, there's We don't know why else, too much calcium in their urine, and the idiopathic part means we've ruled everything else out. We've ruled diet, we've ruled parathyroid, we've ruled other stuff out. We have no other reason, it must be genetics. And when you do a family history, sure enough, Bobby had them, cousin Su-Su Boo-Boo has them, my dad had them, everybody had them. So, there's idiopathic hypercalciuria, again, another video. ### Bone Density Risk and Idiopathic Hypercalciuria 00:15:19 Jill Harris But, so why are we telling people who have too much calcium in the urine now to get enough calcium? Because in many cases, this is coming from your bone. Whether you're eating too much salt, added sugar, and it's being pulled from your bone, just think, it's taken out of your bone and dumped in your urine, so now you have too much, and those other crystals, like oxalate or phosphate, they're like, "Oh, hell yeah, lots of calcium coming down in this pee, it's a party! Let's go find her, have a party!" That's when you can form stones. The problem is they got to fix that. Your urologist or your nephrologist may have to put you on a medication to fix that. If you have calcium coming from your bones, it's an added risk for more stones, it's an added risk for osteoporosis, so darn right you need more calcium! You're losing it from your skeleton! You got to get some, okay? So, that's why. That's why, and it makes perfect sense that people don't understand that, but that's why. So, there's other things going on in their genes that is causing calcium, and/or their diet, causing calcium to be taken away from their bones, dumped into the urine, so they're losing calcium. And I know it sounds counterintuitive that to, you know, you got to eat calcium, why should I, but you're losing it. So, you definitely need to get calcium by food or drink. 00:16:44 Jeff Sarris Yeah, and now you said the idiopathic hypercalciuria, is that how you say it? 00:16:51 Jill Harris Idiopathic hypercalciuria. Calciuria. Means too much calcium in the urine, and we've ruled every other reason out why, so now it just becomes an idiopathic problem, we really don't know why. We're probably going to blame this on genetics considering the family history, but everything else has been ruled out. 00:17:09 Jeff Sarris And, now, obviously, that could be a whole topic on its own, but does the Kidney Stone Diet and the approach tend to help in that scenario? ### Dietary Sodium Reduction and Calcium Retention 00:17:17 Jill Harris 100%. So, the diet will always help, right? The diet's And you're going to say, "Well, yeah, you're selling a diet." I'm not selling a diet, I'm telling you what helps. So, but what I'm saying also is, so a patient comes to me, they're on a higher sodium diet. Their calcium is super high. So, they come to me because the doctor has sent them to me to work on diet. Sometimes, the calcium's so high, I will tell the patient, "Look, we're going to work on diet because that's where you always need to go first. But you still may need a pill to help, because this is going to be probably more genetics, as well." But, "So, Jill, I won't go on your stupid diet. If this is genetic, I'm going to eat all the salt I want. What's the difference?" Because if you lower your sodium, you're still going to lower the amount of calcium you're leaking out of your bone. It may not be enough to halt everything, But it's enough The diet will work enough to get you on a lower dose of the medication you're going to have to go on. And by the way, as I point with my mittens, by the way, those pills are less effective unless you pay attention to sodium. So, those pills that are helping keep calcium in your bone, they ain't going to work as well if you're still eating a buttload of sodium. So, so I'll tell my patients, they're like, "Well, forget you, I'll just go on the pill." I'm like, "Nah, I'll still get my way because the pill doesn't work as well, and then you start going up and up and up on a dose. You don't want that because as we all know, one pill Begets another pill, begets another pill." So, you take a pill, all of a sudden, now this value's low because that pill that's helping this has now lowered this. Two more pills, three more pills, four more pills! Please, as we get older, our pill box gets more and more full. I started You start with In your 40s, you start with a little baby pill box that could fit like this. Now, next thing you know, you have a whole suitcase for your freaking pill box, cuz it's a lot bigger! Let's not do that, ladies and gentlemen, shall we? Let's not do that, please. So, you start with diet, always first. Always, it's a must. You don't get rid of the diet part of it. But some of you will definitely need to take medication to help lower your urine calcium, and then they're They do fine. 00:19:50 Jeff Sarris Yeah, and that's that's sort of where the course and your group calls and things can come in and help people sort of know to understand sort of what they're looking at. Starting with the urine collection, the urine analysis, and breaking that down. But, yeah, you can find all the services and things at kidneystonediet.com, all the free blog posts, the email newsletter. And, yeah, I think this is actually a good spot to wrap because that Yeah, that really covers sort of the hidden question, because the hidden question is calcium. Like really, like it's like, "Is milk bad for me for kidney stones?" yeah, it's almost less about the dairy, but more like, "Hey, calcium stones. Why would I get more calcium?" And it's scary to think that it's being pulled from our bones. Like OUR bones are losing calcium! 00:20:36 Jill Harris Yeah! 00:20:36 Jeff Sarris That is so wild! But, yeah, if you have a question whether about calcium, oxalate, whatever it is, the number is 773-789-8763 and we will feature you on a future episode. But we want to thank you, as always, for joining us, for taking your time, giving us time in your day to watch the show and to share, and give a little thumbs up on YouTube and everything. All of those little things mean a lot, all the comments. So, like we're so grateful just for everything that you guys are doing. So, yeah, thank you so much. 00:21:08 Jill Harris Yeah, thank you. I love answering the comments, people. If you have questions, just use the comments. Thank you. 00:21:13 Jeff Sarris Yeah, sweet, and we'll see you next time.