# Building muscle on the Kidney Stone Diet Source: https://kidneystonediet.com/ep/building-muscle-on-the-kidney-stone-diet/ Published: 2022-03-22 --- [![Kidney Stone Diet Podcast](https://kidneystonediet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/Kidney-Stone-Diet-Podcast-1-1024x1024.jpg)](https://kidneystonediet.com/podcast/) [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpHPRKmr1ic)[Apple Podcasts](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/building-muscle-on-the-kidney-stone-diet/id1528474326?i=1000554864112&uo=4)[Spotify](https://open.spotify.com/episode/0cCekpimcqxVs5UXJ5wA8k)[Amazon Music](https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/0868148d-adfd-411d-b3f2-71a0ad1461ec) March 22, 2022 --- ![Jeff Sarris](https://kidneystonediet.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/Jeff-Sarris-150x150.jpg) Jeff Sarris Host ![Jill Harris](https://kidneystonediet.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/07/Kidney-Stone-Diet-Jill-Harris-150x150.jpg) Jill Harris Host J Jose Guest This week on the Kidney Stone Diet Podcast, Jill Harris answers a listener question about building muscle while watching protein intake, reducing oxalate, sugar, and following the important aspects of the Kidney Stone Diet. Have a question? Leave us a voicemail at (773) 789-8763.\  \  **= Stop your kidney stones once and for all =**\ • [Kidney Stone Prevention Course](https://kidneystonediet.com/kidney-stone-prevention)\ • [Kidney Stone Diet Meal Plans](https://kidneystonediet.com/mealplans/)\ • [24 Hour Urine Collection Analysis](https://kidneystonediet.com/24-hour-urine-analysis/)\ • [Private Coaching](https://kidneystonediet.com/coaching/) **= FREE Kidney Stone Resources =**\ • [Kidney Stone Diet](https://kidneystonediet.com/)\ • [Free Kidney Stone Diet Resources](https://kidneystonediet.com/resources/)\ • [Oxalate Food List](https://kidneystonediet.com/oxalate-list/)\ • [Kidney Stone Diet Recipes](https://kidneystonediet.com/recipes/) Find more episodes of the Kidney Stone Diet Podcast at [kidneystonediet.com/podcast](https://kidneystonediet.com/podcast) **= Who is Jill Harris? =**\ [youtube.com/TheKidneyStoneDiet](https://www.youtube.com/TheKidneyStoneDiet) Jill is a nurse and health coach that specializes in educating patients on kidney stone prevention. For more than 20 years she’s helped patients understand that kidney stones can be prevented with the right treatment plan. It’s one thing to be told to lower oxalate or drink more water, but HOW do you do it? That’s where she comes in. Through the educational resources at [kidneystonediet.com](https://kidneystonediet.com/), stone formers can learn everything they need to know to significantly lower new stone risk. **= Who is Jeff Sarris? =**\ [youtube.com/jeffsarris](https://youtube.com/jeffsarris) Jeff’s co-founder of [SPYR](https://spyr.me/), a branding agency based out of Chicago, where he and his business partner Dave help awesome people like Jill create online platforms that make an impact. He’s also a certified health coach, Executive Producer of the Netflix documentary Minimalism, and host of the [Starting Now podcast](https://spyr.fm/now). Reach out on Twitter! [@jeffSARRIS](https://twitter.com/jeffSARRIS) ## Chapters - 00:00:00 Cultivating Daily Joy and Prioritizing Self Care - 00:03:11 Finding Inner Joy in The Book of Joy - 00:05:44 Bulking Up on the Kidney Stone Diet - 00:08:41 Managing Oxalate and Protein Intake for Muscle Growth - 00:11:13 Progressive Overload and Caloric Needs for Muscle - 00:13:38 Gluconeogenesis, Protein Limits, and Resistance Training ## Transcript ### Cultivating Daily Joy and Prioritizing Self Care 00:00:00 Jeff Sarris [Music] Welcome back to the Kidney Stone Diet podcast, the show about reducing your kidney stone risk and living your best life. I'm your host and fellow student, Jeff Sarris. 00:00:20 Jill Harris I'm Jill Harris, your kidney stone prevention nurse. 00:00:23 Jeff Sarris So, what does that shirt say? "Do more–" 00:00:25 Jill Harris It says, "of what makes you happy." Love it. 00:00:29 Jeff Sarris Right? 00:00:30 Jill Harris I mean, that's so– it's so true. It's what– what life's all about, you know? 00:00:34 Jeff Sarris Yeah. And it doesn't mean that it has to be this super 00:00:37 Jill Harris Crazy thing. It's just like, 00:00:39 Jeff Sarris I don't know, maybe you want to watch an extra kitten video today. 00:00:43 Jill Harris I don't know. People always think it has to be this lofty, big, giant, you know, world-changing, life-changing kind of thing, right? It could just be simple– something simple like going to the store, window shopping, or it could be so frivolous, but or an extra 10 minutes of alone time. It could be whatever 00:01:03 Jeff Sarris You want, as long as it brings you some kind of joy. And the more joy that we have, 00:01:08 Jill Harris Then the more joy that we can give. And I'm a big proponent of that. If I don't get my alone time or I don't have, you know, do the things that make me happy, then I can't spread joy the way I want to. And that's really important to me. I mean, that's my whole MO. People will say, "Jill, I'm just calling you 'cause I know you won't be crabby." 00:01:25 Jeff Sarris [laughter] 00:01:26 Jill Harris Well, and it doesn't mean I'm not crabby, it just means I ain't going to pick up the phone if I am, right? So, it's very important. Women in particular like to think that, you know, they're always supposed to be helping and doing, and if they spend any time, for themselves, then, you know, that's not right of them, and they feel guilty. I say, "Bullshit, ladies! Stop being a martyr. Really take care of yourself." And here's one thing, the older we get, 00:01:52 Jeff Sarris Time goes, and so at some point, 00:01:57 Jill Harris If you take care of yourself, 00:02:00 Jeff Sarris You're able to give better in the world. So, we women specifically have this backward notion that, you know, if we're taking time for ourselves, we just don't have the right to do that. But I push back on that. We talk a lot about this in the Kidney Stone Prevention Course. Make sure that you're 00:02:18 Jill Harris Filling yourself up so you can provide for everybody else in your life. If that's really what you want to do, stop being a martyr and take care of yourself first so you could do it without becoming bitter and resentful somewhere. Why do we do that to ourselves? You know, so I don't do that anymore. I used to do that, and then I got sick and I, 00:02:40 Jeff Sarris Woke up. So, I make sure I get my time for myself. I won't ever do that again. And sometimes that's just That could be an hour in the morning. I'll wake up extra early, and it could just be, you know, answering It and it could be by giving, but I'm taking time out, to answer Facebook questions or whatever I'm doing. Maybe I'm doing my TikToks at that time, now. Whatever I'm doing, 00:03:00 Jill Harris But it's what I want to do. I have that hour to do whatever I want to do with my cup of coffee, and I have it so then I can fully show up in the world. I think that's so important. 00:03:09 Jeff Sarris It's so– 00:03:10 Jill Harris You've got to do that. ### Finding Inner Joy in The Book of Joy 00:03:11 Jeff Sarris Yeah, and finding joy. Like I love that you used the word joy. Right here, that red book you see there? That's called "The Book of Joy." So, it's by, Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama. It's with– with an author, but they 00:03:20 Jill Harris Yeah. 00:03:26 Jeff Sarris Have been best friends for years, for decades. Even when Desmond Tutu was still around. But they'd only met 00:03:35 Jill Harris A couple times, 00:03:37 Jeff Sarris Spent hours together, but they had this kinship that for years they were trying to– to reconnect in person. So, this book is all about that journey to reconnection between them. 00:03:46 Jill Harris Isn't that interesting?. 00:03:47 Jeff Sarris And then, along with the story, they talk all about joy and their 00:03:51 Jill Harris Approaches to joy. Because happy– happiness is fleeting, 00:03:54 Jeff Sarris But joy can– joy can flow through as much of our life as– as we're capable of having it. So, and finding joy in the small things. And like, well, like you said, even just answering emails, like the satisfaction that can come from that, when– when looked at through that lens, is so valuable. 00:03:57 Jill Harris Oh, God, yeah. 00:04:12 Jeff Sarris Look, it is our responsibility 00:04:15 Jill Harris To find joy. It is not anybody's responsibility to give it to us or bring it to us, because that's fleeting. It's got to come in all through you, then you give it out, right? And, so, and I'm not saying people can't accept joy, they can, but in order to keep that going, you've got to rustle all that up yourself. Typically, we're looking outward for whatever. It starts, 00:04:40 Jeff Sarris You could be saying, "Who are you, Oprah Winfrey? What the hell?" But I'm just telling you all the stupid things I've learned in life have become so important to me. And finding joy, 00:04:50 Jill Harris Being healthy, all of the things, that is our own personal responsibility. That is our responsibility. Sometimes you have to seek it outward just because you need to learn how to do it for yourself, and that's where I can be helpful to people. But, overall, you know, it's hard to do that for yourself because you feel you don't deserve it, or maybe you're around the wrong people that– the environment's not filled with pieces of joy that you can pick up. But it's not– I don't mean to be glib about it and it's like, "Everyone go get some joy." 00:05:21 Jeff Sarris [laughter] 00:05:21 Jill Harris It's hard! It's hard and you have to be reflective. You have to think about the ways in which you can bring it to your life and whether you find it valuable. Maybe you tried something that didn't work. You try something else. It's a whole thing, but once you learn how to do it for yourself, it's wonderful. And then, you can give it to other people. That's That's a wonderful feeling. It really is. 00:05:41 Jeff Sarris Yeah, absolutely. ### Bulking Up on the Kidney Stone Diet 00:05:44 Jill Harris Well, I think that's a perfect spot to dive into our question. And, if you have a question, the number again is 773-789-8763. But yeah, we have a question from looks like Jose. 00:05:46 Jeff Sarris All right, let's go. 00:05:58 Jose Hey, what's going on? I'm Jose, here in Los Angeles, California. Wondering how one can bulk up on the kidney stone diet. I'm trying to pack on muscle, and it seems difficult because the typical things which one can use, like peanut butter, high oxalate. And then there's also chocolate, but, you know, high oxalate. And then, they– we have meat, which is an animal protein, but supposedly having too much animal protein is bad for you. You can only drink so much olive oil, although that's high calorie. And I'm just trying to figure out what else, because something that's high in sugar, like vanilla ice cream, which is also good to add to a protein shake, supposedly, you know, that's– that's a lot of sugar. And so, I'm trying to figure out what healthy things I can eat a lot of, mass quantities of, to bulk up and pack on muscle. So far, the only thing I can seem to find is bananas. 00:07:03 Jeff Sarris Okay. Well, it's a 00:07:07 Jill Harris Okay, Jose is not going to like what I have to say, and I think anybody that does some bodybuilding may not like what I have to say, but I have people in the industry that agree with me. 00:07:16 Jeff Sarris Now, 00:07:18 Jill Harris Ask yourself, bulking up, he's talking about– he wants to gain some muscle. He's also talking about very high calorie foods that he wants to bulk up with. 00:07:29 Jeff Sarris So, with fat, those are fatty foods, the ice cream, the peanut butter. Yes, they'll add some calories, but I don't know about so much muscle. And there's new– there's a lot of research that says we really don't need to bulk up 00:07:43 Jill Harris To get muscle. 00:07:44 Jeff Sarris So, you'll see a lot of people in the bodybuilding world, they're going through a bulk phase: bulk, bulk, bulk. And then a show's coming, and now they got to get lean. 00:07:54 Jill Harris [laughter] So, they bulked up for what? They grew a little bit of muscle and a and a hell of a lot of fat! And now they've got to 00:08:01 Jeff Sarris Get ripped for their show. 00:08:04 Jill Harris So, I don't agree with that. I'm not somebody who agrees with bulking when the ultimate goal is to build muscle. So, there's two different things. You don't have to gain fat to get to get muscle. Okay? 00:08:18 Jeff Sarris A lot That is kind of going to the wayside now, this whole bulk up phase just to then get 00:08:26 Jill Harris Lean. I don't think it makes much sense. Then once you start trying to get lean, you bulked up, 00:08:33 Jeff Sarris Make some muscle, more so fat, though, and then you're trying to get lean again, and then you lose muscle! So, what are we doing here? ### Managing Oxalate and Protein Intake for Muscle Growth 00:08:41 Jill Harris So, here's what I think. In order to grow muscle, you do need protein. 00:08:45 Jeff Sarris You know? Up to a gram of protein per pound. 00:08:49 Jill Harris How are you going to get it? You can also get it through vegetables. I don't think anybody should be eating the same food over and over again. The reason I have bodybuilders in my practice is because they ate a jar of peanut butter every day. 00:09:02 Jeff Sarris You don't need to do that. There's plenty of other protein sources. There's, on my website, there's articles on vegetable proteins, 00:09:12 Jill Harris Non-meat proteins. You can do it that way. So, protein is going to be the building block, obviously, of muscle. So, get up to 00:09:20 Jeff Sarris Get your needs taken care of. 00:09:24 Jill Harris Now, I wish I knew his weight. I mean, that would be very helpful. So, you know, is he 120 pounds trying to bulk up to 160? 'Cause that's whole different than if he's 160 and he wants to bulk up to 220. 00:09:37 Jeff Sarris Yeah, if we're talking like bodybuilding or just sort of like, "I'm thin and I don't want to be so thin." Those are different approaches to the to the challenge. 00:09:41 Jill Harris Exactly. 00:09:42 Jeff Sarris Totally different things. Totally different things. Hold on, somebody's trying Hold on, send to voicemail, okay. 00:09:50 Jill Harris Two totally different things. 00:09:53 Jeff Sarris So, I'm not a fan, and I'm a certified personal trainer, I understand, I like bodybuilding, too. I have some little big muscle for me, right? So I understand that somebody wants to build muscle. So, if that's what he wants to do, he can certainly build some muscle, get enough calories every day, he can He does not have to eat olive oils to keep olive oil to keep calories on, eat his normal amount of food. He can eat He can He can get a surplus of calories if he needs to, just spread it all around. So, if you want peanut butter, 00:10:24 Jill Harris Jose, you can certainly have it. 2 tablespoons of peanut butter, put it in your smoothie. There's 26 mg of oxalate. You get up to 100 a day. Have a calcium source with that smoothie. I'm not worried about that. 00:10:39 Jeff Sarris Right? So, there's 200 calories about in your peanut butter, you'll have your fat, it'll have, it will have some oxalate, but the calcium will pretty much negate it. And you watch your oxalate for the rest of the day. There's ways in which, but that's a great question. There's no perfect answer for that, 00:10:55 Jill Harris Meaning I would need to talk to somebody and say, "Where is it that you are? Where do you want to be?" And that– that's a consult. That's, then you work with somebody, 'cause that's not a generic question. So, number one, I'm not a huge believer in bulking to grow muscle, ### Progressive Overload and Caloric Needs for Muscle 00:11:13 Jeff Sarris When then you're just going to debulk and going to lose some of that muscle you just grew, so read some research on that. People are not thinking bulking is the way to go anymore. That's Arnold Schwarzenegger kind of thing back in the day. 00:11:25 Jill Harris More so now bodybuilders are not doing that because they lose the muscle they just gained from bulking when they try to get lean again. So, that. You do not have to 00:11:36 Jeff Sarris Bulk to grow muscle. You just have to maintain your calories and push harder weights, okay? And be consistent in the gym. That's what you need to do. So, that is a That is a question that I can't just say, "Here's the answer to." It would need more digging out. But I love the question! So, what Jose can take away from this is, 00:11:57 Jill Harris "Jose, you can certainly eat some 00:12:00 Jeff Sarris Peanut butter. Again, you just can't eat a whole jar of it. Get your calcium needs met. Get your protein needs from other foods besides animal protein. Get your Get what you can from animal protein. You can figure out how much that is for you on my website on how to calculate your meat protein needs at kidneystonediet.com, my blog. But then you can have other protein sources as well. You can have eggs. You can have a protein smoothie. Just pick the lower-salt, lower-sugar ones, okay? Pair that with milk, or a non-dairy calcium source. So, there's ways in which to 00:12:35 Jill Harris Get, to keep your protein needs, 'cause bodybuilders will say, "Well, I'm building muscle. I need more protein." Get it through other sources. 00:12:44 Jeff Sarris And you don't need as much protein as you think to build muscle because at some point once you get over like more than a gram per pound per day, more than a gram per pound, you're not building that much more muscle, people! It goes like this. 00:13:03 Jill Harris So, don't be thinking more is better, even with protein. At some point, you just You can just grow so much muscle, so I want you to realize that, too. Newbie gains are a real thing. If you're new at this, Jose, you're going to, and you haven't lifted before or done all the things, you'll grow muscle pretty quickly, and then you'll stabilize. 00:13:22 Jeff Sarris Those newbie gains are a great thing, and then you can slowly keep adding muscle throughout your whole life by lifting heavier, being consistent 00:13:30 Jill Harris With your workouts, and maintaining your calories, okay? So, that's how you do it, but that would need a consult. It's a great question, though. God knows I love talking about that kind of stuff, yeah. ### Gluconeogenesis, Protein Limits, and Resistance Training 00:13:38 Jeff Sarris Yeah, and I wanted to touch on– you said the protein, you hit a certain point, and it 00:13:42 Jill Harris I love it. 00:13:43 Jeff Sarris More protein doesn't mean more muscle, and I just also wanted to just touch on like really quickly. There is this is a technical term for like people listening or whatever, like gluconeogenesis. So, you hit a certain point with protein amino acids where it turns in actually to carbohydrates. So, sometimes, yeah, people might be going for like, okay, I'm going lean, I'm going to like I'm going to bulk up and I'm going to stay lean, 00:14:03 Jill Harris Yeah. Absolutely. 00:14:06 Jeff Sarris And then suddenly, you're spiking your blood glucose without knowing it because, "I'm doing everything right, like in my head, like I'm I have my whey protein, I have this, I have that," but there is this it's like the law of diminishing returns. You just 00:14:20 Jill Harris Exactly. 00:14:21 Jeff Sarris You can add in some of the protein, you can do these things, but there's there's always that balance. And like Jill said, moving more weight. Like It comes down a lot to the like the compound exercises and different things that are getting, stimulating your like hormonal response, like stimulating your body in the ways that works best for you. For men, that could be fasting, a fasted workout. You might wake up instead of starting with like bacon and eggs, maybe you're going to the gym and doing 00:14:50 Jill Harris Yeah. 00:14:51 Jeff Sarris Squats and deadlifts, whatever it is that you do, and that might actually spark your system in a way. I don't want to I don't want to get to too much into that because that's this isn't really what we're here for, but there's so many things that maybe the focus on more intake of food might not be the exact, maybe the exact pin to stick in. There it's a balance of so many things to consider. 00:15:15 Jill Harris Yes, and I would say with to jump on what you just said is each person is different. Some people will say, "I'm going to tell you right now, Jill, I lift so much heavier and I have so much more energy when I have a carb when I have a meal that consists of carbs an hour before I work out." And some and other people are like, "I am I am an IF- intermittent fasting, and I have my most energy right I have my coffee and then I go to the gym, and I bench my highest," you know. And some people are like, "No." So, you've got to figure out what works for you. 00:15:47 Jeff Sarris So, everybody's different 00:15:49 Jill Harris Like that. So, and some people say, "I got to have that smoothie right after my workout." There's no There's There Research shows you don't have to run home and have a piece of turkey and get some protein in. You can You can wait a couple hours. It's not, you know. So, right, there's there's a level where there is just a diminishing return. I always say this and kidney stone formers have learned this by overeating almonds and spinach. At some point, 00:16:16 Jeff Sarris Stuff goes south. 00:16:18 Jill Harris More is not better, and so for building muscle, what you want to do is have a diet that works for you that will get you to be able to lift more weight and lift it longer, right? And you don't have to be in the gym for 2 hours, I'm just saying. 00:16:34 Jeff Sarris Maybe, you want to build some muscle, maybe instead of three reps, 00:16:37 Jill Harris You're do- three sets, you're doing four sets, okay? Maybe instead of 8 to 10 reps, you're doing 10 to 14 reps. I mean, there's many different ways to build muscle, and definitely 00:16:47 Jeff Sarris Or vice versa. Yeah, maybe instead of 8 to 10, you're doing two to three because the way, it's like there's so many variables, yeah. 00:16:51 Jill Harris The weight is so heavy. Exactly, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to eat more calories, people, to bulk up, and then to get that lean to get that lean body afterwards. It's, so, you know, the whole bulking up, if Jose is too thin, 00:17:09 Jeff Sarris If he's thin, he may want to add some weight, but bulking is a very specific term, and I would need to know if he meant it in its true, its true sense, or he just needed to gain some weight because he's too thin and he's trying to You don't have to gain fat to get muscle. This is the point of this, was what I'm saying. You don't need to eat extra calories 00:17:28 Jill Harris To get muscle. That's my point. I don't eat extra calories and I have muscle, good muscles for an old lady! [laughter] That's my point. 00:17:35 Jeff Sarris I love that this question got both of us really excited! [laughter] Like, it's just it's a fun because it is. It's a little outside of the norm the norm for things, but it's like right in our wheelhouses and like sort of where we focus and what we, yeah, what makes us come alive beyond, the typical topics. So, yeah, thank you so much, Jose, for calling in. 00:17:52 Jill Harris Wonderful, Jose, thank you. 00:17:53 Jeff Sarris Yeah, and if you have any follow up questions, actually, feel free to call in, and anyone listening, the number again is 773-789-8763 and we would love to feature you on a future episode. So that'll do it for this week. Head over to kidneystonediet.com if you have any other, pressing needs, concerns, questions. You want to check out the course, want to check out the meal plans, want to join the email newsletter that goes out every Saturday, so much, so much is there. And, yeah, we really appreciate every one of you out there and everyone who's subscribed to the YouTube channel, clicked the little bell, 00:18:26 Jill Harris [music] 00:18:27 Jeff Sarris The thumbs up, the comments, it all it all means a lot, so, yeah. Thanks again, and we will see you all next time. 00:18:33 Jill Harris Thanks for being here, guys. Bye! 00:18:36 Jeff Sarris Bye.